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View Poll Results: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Yes, I'm a Theist (Believe in holy revelation via a "Holy Book") 57 19.52%
Yes, I'm a Deist (Believe in God based upon the existence of the Universe and evolved life) 40 13.70%
Perhaps, I'm Agnostic (As there is conflicting, or a lack of, evidence you just don't know) 73 25.00%
No, I'm an Atheist (science will eventually understand the origins of the Big Bang/Universe) 122 41.78%
Voters: 292. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-22-2009, 04:11 AM   #466
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Wow, you really have no clue as to what you're talking about. So evolution is pure, random chance now? We did evolve. You need to educate yourself before you take part in these discussions. You know nothing about the subject, nor do you know anything about the mountain of evidence that supports the theory of evolution.

We evolved because the conditions on earth happen to allow for it, not because God fine tuned the conditions. Why didn't God allow for the other planets to produce life? Why didn't he fine tune those, too? Ours is the only planet we know of that has the conditions to allow for life to evolve.

Also, if God created the universe and everything in it, he did a really shitty job. Idiotic creationists like to point to the eye as the pinnacle of God's design. Do you have any idea how poorly the eye was designed, considering that God is infallible?

And your final paragraph doesn't even deserve a response. It is an old creationist argument and it has had the shit kicked out of it so many times that I'm embarrassed that you even mentioned it.
first you didn't answer my question, what you choose to believe about the universe being eternal and "always existed" is illogical, so why do you grasp at it?

secondly, I didn't say evolution is pure random chance, I don't deny evolution in nature, there is enough evidence of it, however evolution doesn't explain how life started, which is the point I was arguing about, which supports the existence of a creator.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:13 AM   #467
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
lol thanks and no need for the condescending tone, what about abiogenesis? did they reach any solid conclusions or found answers? no they didn't, there is still no explanation of how life came up from inanimate objects, therefore there is no point to push cool words like that in my face, since it proves nothing for you.
Skimmed wikipedia, did you?

Do some proper reading. There are many viable explanations. That's the point. There are a shitload of natural explanations. Any one of them could be correct.

There are many ways to kill a man. The police might come up with several theories as to how the man was killed, each of which are perfectly plausible. Just because they haven't figured out which one is correct yet, it doesn't mean that each of them are without merit. One thing is for sure, they won't put in their report: "A man who sits in the clouds killed him".

As I said, there are a number of natural explanations that are plausible. There's no need to look to supernatural explanations. That's not a convenient answer for you, though. The truth doesn't matter to you. Scientists could have pinpointed exactly what happened, but you would still say, "God did it lolz!". I know you would say that because you say the same thing about evolution. It's perhaps the best supported theory we have in science, but you still deny it.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:18 AM   #468
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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first you didn't answer my question, what you choose to believe about the universe being eternal and "always existed" is illogical, so why do you grasp at it?

secondly, I didn't say evolution is pure random chance, I don't deny evolution in nature, there is enough evidence of it, however evolution doesn't explain how life started, which is the point I was arguing about, which supports the existence of a creator.
Evolution has nothing to do with how life started. I told you, that is the realm of abiogensis. That field has produced a number of plausible theories. Therefore, it absolutely does not support the existence of a creator. In fact, it negates the need for a creator. There are multiple possible explanations.

And why is it illogical to suggest the possibility that the universe has always existed? You're stuck on the idea that everything needs to have a beginning. We are pattern seekers. The notion that there had to be a beginning is little more than what our minds demand.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:20 AM   #469
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Skimmed wikipedia, did you?

Do some proper reading. There are many viable explanations. That's the point. There are a shitload of natural explanations. Any one of them could be correct.

There are many ways to kill a man. The police might come up with several theories as to how the man was killed, each of which are perfectly plausible. Just because they haven't figured out which one is correct yet, it doesn't mean that each of them are without merit. One thing is for sure, they won't put in their report: "A man who sits in the clouds killed him".

As I said, there are a number of natural explanations that are plausible. There's no need to look to supernatural explanations. That's not a convenient answer for you, though. The truth doesn't matter to you. Scientists could have pinpointed exactly what happened, but you would still say, "God did it lolz!". I know you would say that because you say the same thing about evolution. It's perhaps the best supported theory we have in science, but you still deny it.
there are theories about it and not clear explanations, and your example isn't accurate, there is no evidence that these theories are even applicable or could have happened.

as I said above, I don't deny evolution, I believe in theistic evolution.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:26 AM   #470
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Evolution has nothing to do with how life started. I told you, that is the realm of abiogensis. That field has produced a number of plausible theories. Therefore, it absolutely does not support the existence of a creator. In fact, it negates the need for a creator. There are multiple possible explanations.

And why is it illogical to suggest the possibility that the universe has always existed? You're stuck on the idea that everything needs to have a beginning. We are pattern seekers. The notion that there had to be a beginning is little more than what our minds demand.
it IS illogical to suggest that something has always existed, you are willing to dismiss your mind's reason and logic in this so easily yet there is no room for a deity for you? that doesn't make any sense, either be logical on all fronts or if you willing to make exceptions, don't be picky!
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:30 AM   #471
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
there are theories about it and not clear explanations, and your example isn't accurate, there is no evidence that these theories are even applicable or could have happened.

as I said above, I don't deny evolution, I believe in theistic evolution.
What are you talking about? Many of them could have happened. More than one of the theories produced in the field of abiogenesis are plausible. You still haven't grasped what a scientific theory is, have you? Why do you insist on involving yourself in a discussion when it is clear that you have not done the requisite research? A scientific theory isn't a guess. Scientific theories are backed by evidence.

Ah, theistic evolution. Makes a lot of sense. "God created man in his own image". I guess God is a single-celled organism, then. That makes what he does that much more remarkable.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:36 AM   #472
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
What are you talking about? Many of them could have happened. More than one of the theories produced in the field of abiogenesis are plausible. You still haven't grasped what a scientific theory is, have you? Why do you insist on involving yourself in a discussion when it is clear that you have not done the requisite research? A scientific theory isn't a guess. Scientific theories are backed by evidence.

Ah, theistic evolution. Makes a lot of sense. "God created man in his own image". I guess God is a single-celled organism, then. That makes what he does that much more remarkable.
no they are not plausible, they are theories with no explanation or evidence how they could happen, instead of you arguing about how much I know on this matter, let's cut it short, the day scientists are able to synthesize a "protocell" using basic components the way the theory suggests in a lab, I'll believe that life could have came out of nothing like you want me to believe, before that, a creator sounds much more plausible and logical.

I'm not Christian, so "God created man in his own image" doesn't mean much to me
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:41 AM   #473
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
it IS illogical to suggest that something has always existed, you are willing to dismiss your mind's reason and logic in this so easily yet there is no room for a deity for you? that doesn't make any sense, either be logical on all fronts or if you willing to make exceptions, don't be picky!
I am being logical. You still haven't explained why what I am suggesting is illogical. I am logical to a fault and I don't care if it leads me to inconvenient truths. You make the assumption that the universe required a beginning. Presumably, you must think that the universe will end at some point. That's where your "logic" leads you. Tell me, how do you foresee that vast sea of nothingness meeting its demise? Geographically, do you think the universe stops somewhere? Is it like a computer game, in which there's an invisible wall that prevents you from progressing beyond where the game's programmers permit?

The universe, in my opinion, is infintite. In other words, it has no beginning and it has no end. It just is. That's a little too much for your mind to grasp, though. You have to wrestle with the concept of infinity for a while before you can make peace with it. It's counter-intuitive, but in the end it's the only explanation that makes sense.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:51 AM   #474
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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no they are not plausible, they are theories with no explanation or evidence how they could happen, instead of you arguing about how much I know on this matter, let's cut it short, the day scientists are able to synthesize a "protocell" using basic components the way the theory suggests in a lab, I'll believe that life could have came out of nothing like you want me to believe, before that, a creator sounds much more plausible and logical.

I'm not Christian, so "God created man in his own image" doesn't mean much to me
Life didn't come from nothing. Do you think the earth was barren or something? Get a clue.

No, it probably doesn't mean much to you. That line doesn't apply to your particular brand of monotheism. You worship the correct God, by the way. The other several billion on this planet worship the wrong God. It's funny how people tend to believe in a God that the majority of people from the same culture believe in. It's almost as if you were raised to believe in that God. Some might even call it indoctrination. That's just me being paranoid, though. You'd still be a Muslim if you were brought up by Christians in the bible belt, right?
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:58 AM   #475
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
I am being logical. You still haven't explained why what I am suggesting is illogical. I am logical to a fault and I don't care if it leads me to inconvenient truths. You make the assumption that the universe required a beginning. Presumably, you must think that the universe will end at some point. That's where your "logic" leads you. Tell me, how do you foresee that vast sea of nothingness meeting its demise? Geographically, do you think the universe stops somewhere? Is it like a computer game, in which there's an invisible wall that prevents you from progressing beyond where the game's programmers permit?

The universe, in my opinion, is infintite. In other words, it has no beginning and it has no end. It just is. That's a little too much for your mind to grasp, though. You have to wrestle with the concept of infinity for a while before you can make peace with it. It's counter-intuitive, but in the end it's the only explanation that makes sense.
I don't know how the universe is supposed to meet its end, but as far as my reason and logic accompanied with my life experience and knowledge tells me, everything we know has had a beginning and will have an end and nothing lasts forever, I don't need to argue for this point, you need to explain why is it logical to believe that the universe is the exception and is eternal.

I'm glad you said "in my opinion" though, and no it isn't the only explanation that makes sense, it doesn't even make sense to begin with.

what about the big bang though, you don't believe in it?
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:06 AM   #476
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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I don't know how the universe is supposed to meet its end, but as far as my reason and logic accompanied with my life experience and knowledge tells me, everything we know has had a beginning and will have an end and nothing lasts forever, I don't need to argue for this point, you need to explain why is it logical to believe that universe is the exception and is eternal?

I'm glad you said "in my opinion" though, and no it isn't the only explanation that makes sense, it doesn't even make sense to begin with.

what about the big bang though, you don't believe in it?
Of course I believe in the big bang. I don't mean the universe as we know it now, though. I believe the universe in some form has always existed.

Like I said, you have to wrestle with the concept of infinity before you can make peace with it. All of my opinions are tentative, though. I can be persuaded otherwise if someone has a strong enough argument.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:06 AM   #477
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Life didn't come from nothing. Do you think the earth was barren or something? Get a clue.
what you are proposing and what abiogenesis proposes is that life as we know it came from basic inanimate components in nature that formed the single-celled organism, that would mean life came from nothing, those basic components had no life, what made them have life? abiogenesis doesn't explain that now does it?

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No, it probably doesn't mean much to you. That line doesn't apply to your particular brand of monotheism. You worship the correct God, by the way. The other several billion on this planet worship the wrong God. It's funny how people tend to believe in a God that the majority of people from the same culture believe in. It's almost as if you were raised to believe in that God. Some might even call it indoctrination. That's just me being paranoid, though. You'd still be a Muslim if you were brought up by Christians in the bible belt, right?
I wonder how much you know about Islam, I doubt you know much from what you say here.

Islam isn't a new brand of religion, it is God's religion, the religion all prophets came to preach for, including Moses and Jesus, although each prophet came with slightly different set of rituals and obligations, they all preached the same thing, that there is only one true God worthy of worship who created everything in the world.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:11 AM   #478
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Of course I believe in the big bang. I don't mean the universe as we know it now, though. I believe the universe in some form has always existed.

Like I said, you have to wrestle with the concept of infinity before you can make peace with it. All of my opinions are tentative, though. I can be persuaded otherwise if someone has a strong enough argument.
well my point was that belief in an eternal universe is no less illogical than belief in an eternal entity, if you came in peace with the concept of eternity and infinity which defies logic and reason, then why are you so much against one but not the other? you don't know enough about either of them anyway.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:13 AM   #479
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what you are proposing and what abiogenesis proposes is that life as we know it came from basic inanimate components in nature that formed the single-celled organism, that would mean life came from nothing, those basic components had no life, what made them have life? abiogenesis doesn't explain that now does it?
I love it. You've spent 5 minutes on wikipedia and you think you know what the fuck you're talking about.

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I wonder how much you know about Islam, I doubt you know much from what you say here.

Islam isn't a new brand of religion, it is God's religion, the religion all prophets came to preach for, including Moses and Jesus, although each prophet came with slightly different set of rituals and obligations, they all preached the same thing, that there is only one true God worthy of worship who created everything in the world.
I'm just going to leave that paragraph of baseless nonsense and ask you to answer my question.

Would you still be a Muslim if you were brought up by Evangelical Christians in the USA?
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:18 AM   #480
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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well my point was that belief in an eternal universe is no less illogical than belief in an eternal entity, if you came in peace with the concept of eternity and infinity which defies logic and reason, then why are you so much against one but not the other? you don't know enough about either of them anyway.
I answered that already. We know the universe exists. We do not know that a God exists, nor do we have any evidence to even suggest that one exists. You can make an argument for the universe having always existed in some form because we know it exists. It is entirely irrational to argue that a supreme being, whom we have no evidence for, has always existed.

You first have to prove that God exists before you can even start making a case for him having always existed. One step at a time. First prove he/she/it actually exists and then we can discuss whether your God is infinite. I don't have to prove the universe exists.

And only an idiot would think that the concept of infinity is irrational. Here's an idea. Start counting and stop when you get to the end.
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