[habibko]

Originally Posted by Clydey

It's not what I think it should be. It is the actual definition of atheism. Your links amount to little more than a bastardisation of the term.

It is faking belief. Let's say, for example, Pacal's Wager demanded that you believe in Santa. Could you force yourself to believe that Santa actually exists? Of course you couldn't. You can't just wake up one day and say, "I think I'll decide to believe in Santa today".

God is supposedly omniscient. Unless you truly believe he exists, he will know you are faking. Therefore, Pacal's Wager is nonsense.

I'm not here to argue for or against Pasca's Wager, my belief doesn't stem from his ground, so someone who supports his philosophy should answer you.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

You're right, and Pascal knew about it too, and actually most of his writings on his "wager" address this point. Is it possible to force oneself to belief? That's the first of many flaws of his theory, which I don't find that praiseworthy to begin with, since I believe any slightly intelligent adult could come to that conclusion pretty easily.

The reason I mention it is because it's the major flaw. His reasoning hangs on it. There are so many idiotic theories and statements that have inexplicably achieved longevity. Pacal's Wager is right up there with much of Freud's work.

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

Of course they aren't, neither is Santa Claus-God. I'm sure you're sick and tired of listening to the "reasons" for God existence and I don't feel like going through them either, but I do think they are a lot, as in a lot stronger than the ones supporting Santa Claus's existence, just as is the case with aliens.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess. If not for the fact that I have a bunch of sociology shit to do for tomorrow, I'd sit here all night and discuss this.

[Dini]

I don't believe in God and religion hasn't done much good for the world in my opinion. Too many wars and conflicts over something that should be about the person and object/spirit of worship in private. Hate it when it's forced on a country - I believe religion should be about personal choice.

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

This is wrong. Also, you are confusing religion and God again.

we were talking about Pascal's Wager, what else besides religion tells you that there is Heaven and Hell? the whole Wager is based on God's revelations of punishments according to religions and the fact that it's better to believe to avoid punishment, God and religion can't be separated here.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

How do you know? Both are beliefs, you can't prove any of them.

It comes down to probabilities. Neither can be proven as yet, but one is much more likely than the other.

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Infini.

I don't believe in God and religion hasn't done much good for the world in my opinion. Too many wars and conflicts over something that should be about the person and object/spirit of worship.

religion isn't the reason people fight wars, people are the reason, if they didn't fight for God, they will fight for their homeland, ideology, race, tribe, king etc, war is a human nature.

[Dini]

Religion is the root of many conflicts though. India, Ireland, Palestine... I can go on.

It's also down to people's interpretation of religion, but like I said it should be a private thing between you and "God"; forcing someone to wear hijab for example while they're not convinced is a lie and not a true reflection of their own personal beliefs. Fakery in other words.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by habibko

religion isn't the reason people fight wars, people are the reason, if they didn't fight for God, they will fight for their homeland, ideology, race, tribe, king etc, war is a human nature.

Religion is a means of justifying just about any action. For example, the 9/11 hijackers weren't bad people. They sincerely believed they were doing God's work. They were of the belief that they were doing good.

You can say that they misinterpreted the Qur'an, but it was their inspiration. Without the Qur'an, 9/11 doesn't happen. Similarly, you cannot deny the level of depravity in the Old Testament.

[Har-Tru]

Originally Posted by Clydey

The reason I mention it is because it's the major flaw. His reasoning hangs on it. There are so many idiotic theories and statements that have inexplicably achieved longevity. Pacal's Wager is right up there with much of Freud's work.



We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess. If not for the fact that I have a bunch of sociology shit to do for tomorrow, I'd sit here all night and discuss this.

We can continue this another time, but I can't promise I'll be in the mood for this deep stuff...

Originally Posted by Infini.

I believe religion should be about personal choice.

Originally Posted by habibko

we were talking about Pascal's Wager, what else besides religion tells you that there is Heaven and Hell? the whole Wager is based on God's revelations of punishments according to religions and the fact that it's better to believe to avoid punishment, God and religion can't be separated here.

Fair enough... but I don't know about Islam, but Catholicism doesn't take faith as the only requirement for salvation: good deeds are needed too. If you believe all your life in God, then kill a man and then die, you go to hell. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Clydey

It comes down to probabilities. Neither can be proven as yet, but one is much more likely than the other.

But that's your belief, which you can't prove. I could perfectly say the contrary.

[Har-Tru]

Originally Posted by habibko

religion isn't the reason people fight wars, people are the reason, if they didn't fight for God, they will fight for their homeland, ideology, race, tribe, king etc, war is a human nature.

Uhm? So many wars have and are being fought due to religion. Most of them against the precepts of that same religion, but that's another story.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

But that's your belief, which you can't prove. I could perfectly say the contrary.

It's also my belief that Federer is more likely to beat Bogdanovic, as opposed to the reverse. You can call it a belief and imply that it's a matter of faith. The fact is that one is more likely to happen than the other.

[Getta]

Originally Posted by habibko

religion isn't the reason people fight wars, people are the reason, if they didn't fight for God, they will fight for their homeland, ideology, race, tribe, king etc, war is a human nature.

war is not part of human nature, it has simply become a nasty habit.

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

Fair enough... but I don't know about Islam, but Catholicism doesn't take faith as the only requirement for salvation: good deeds are needed too. If you believe all your life in God, then kill a man and then die, you go to hell. Simple as that.

the same goes, naturally enough, for the Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

[Har-Tru]

Originally Posted by Clydey

It's also my belief that Federer is more likely to beat Bogdanovic, as opposed to the reverse. You can call it a belief and imply that it's a matter of faith. The fact is that one is more likely to happen than the other.

Oh come on. You have evidential facts to support the Federer-Boggo claim, none in the other case.

Originally Posted by Getta

war is not part of human nature, it has simply become a nasty habit.



the same goes, naturally enough, for the Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Well I thought so, but wasn't sure.

First statement is very optimistic...

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Infini.

Religion is the root of many conflicts though. India, Ireland, Palestine... I can go on.

It's also down to people's interpretation of religion, but like I said it should be a private thing between you and "God"; forcing someone to wear hijab for example while they're not convinced is a lie and not a true reflection of their own personal beliefs. Fakery in other words.

yes religion and God drove to many wars and conflicts because of it's massive power and influence on people especially where ignorance is present, but that doesn't mean religion is evil as it is, it means people can use it in an evil way, it's the same with a knife for example, it can be used to kill someone as well as prepare your dinner, does that make a knife evil?

there is no religion that gives you the right to spill an innocent blood, but people will twist everything they have including religion to justify their actions, it has happened throughout history.

Originally Posted by Clydey

Religion is a means of justifying just about any action. For example, the 9/11 hijackers weren't bad people. They sincerely believed they were doing God's work. They were of the belief that they were doing good.

You can say that they misinterpreted the Qur'an, but it was their inspiration. Without the Qur'an, 9/11 doesn't happen. Similarly, you cannot deny the level of depravity in the Old Testament.

well the same can be said about any insane person, he doesn't believe he is doing something wrong, he is not a bad person, but his actions can still be wrong and harmful.

without daggers, spears and swords in the past, people wouldn't have killed each other, same with missiles and guns these days, it doesn't make them evil in essence, it means they can be used in an evil way.

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

Fair enough... but I don't know about Islam, but Catholicism doesn't take faith as the only requirement for salvation: good deeds are needed too. If you believe all your life in God, then kill a man and then die, you go to hell. Simple as that.

in Islam belief in one true God is enough for ultimate salvation, but there are degrees to salvation and also you could spend years in hell for certain sins you committed before finally making it to Heaven.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

Oh come on. You have evidential facts to support the Federer-Boggo claim, none in the other case.

I told you, it's a matter of probabilities. Think of the size of the universe. The chances are that life has evolved somewhere else. Of course that's likely. It is infinitely more likely than the chance existence of a fat bloke in a red suit, who rides a sleigh and delivers gifts to everyone in the world on the evening of 24th December.

One is much more likely than the other. I'm at pains to think of how you could possibly deny that.