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View Poll Results: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Yes, I'm a Theist (Believe in holy revelation via a "Holy Book") 57 19.52%
Yes, I'm a Deist (Believe in God based upon the existence of the Universe and evolved life) 40 13.70%
Perhaps, I'm Agnostic (As there is conflicting, or a lack of, evidence you just don't know) 73 25.00%
No, I'm an Atheist (science will eventually understand the origins of the Big Bang/Universe) 122 41.78%
Voters: 292. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-18-2009, 09:20 PM   #406
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
A poor analogy. I have a better one.

I can bet on Federer, on Alex Bogdanovic, or I can pass.

Federer represents atheism, Boggo represents theism, while passing represents agnosticism.
You know as well as me that a theist will turn Federer and Boggo around.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:23 PM   #407
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
Pascal's Wager...
Ah the memories of philosophy classes in high school!

Pascal's Wager has many flaws (faith by fear of God alone doesn't amount to salvation in many religions), and it could be partly comparable to betting on the favourite player.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:24 PM   #408
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
Pascal's Wager...



common sense isn't an established truth, it's what people use to cope with the world, and they can be right or wrong.

I'm the one who doesn't listen? I know what a-theism literally mean, however the TERM/CONCEPT/DEFINITION is more broad than that, don't start arguing using semantics please, anti-semitic literally means against semitic people, that means you are against Arabs, Jews among other races, but is that what the term really means?
The reason why people are so confused about atheism is because everyone thinks it is more complicated than it is. It is simple. It's not my fault that people cannot grasp such a simple concept and think that the term means more than it actually does. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a God. That is the extent of my atheism. Any other opinions I have depart from atheism at that point. There are other terms you may also be confusing with atheism, such as anti-theism. They are not the same.

And what Har-Tru said has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager. And even if it did, PW falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:26 PM   #409
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Ah the memories of philosophy classes in high school!

Pascal's Wager has many flaws
(faith by fear of God alone doesn't amount to salvation in many religions), and it could be partly comparable to betting on the favourite player.
Absolutely.

If God is omniscient, you cannot get away with faking belief. He/she/it would know you are being disingenuous and you would go to hell.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:30 PM   #410
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
You're right, atheism and theism are based on BELIEFS. But you're not right in putting the belief in Santa Claus and God in the same basket. The only thing they have in common is that they're both overweight old men with long white beards. But one of them is obviously an invention of folklore, while the other one... you know what I mean.
Why is one more plausible than the other? They are both inventions of folklore, in my opinion.

I mean that genuinely. Why is an all-powerful deity a more plausible concept than a fat dude who delivers presents?
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:33 PM   #411
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Absolutely.

If God is omniscient, you cannot get away with faking belief. He/she/it would know you are being disingenuous and you would go to hell.
But it wouldn't be faked belief, it would be belief due to fear of God.

It is essentially a rather strong concept for Protestants, since they believe in salvation by faith alone (sola fide), but useless for pretty much everybody else.

There are many other flaws though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:35 PM   #412
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
The reason why people are so confused about atheism is because everyone thinks it is more complicated than it is. It is simple. It's not my fault that people cannot grasp such a simple concept and think that the term means more than it actually does. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a God. That is the extent of my atheism. Any other opinions I have depart from atheism at that point. There are other terms you may also be confusing with atheism, such as anti-theism. They are not the same.

And what Har-Tru said has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager. And even if it did, PW falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds.
if you want to tailor the definition of atheism on your own perception and the way you "think" it should be, be my guest, I was telling you that atheism in fact is a broad concept and I posted links discussing different types of atheism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Absolutely.

If God is omniscient, you cannot get away with faking belief. He/she/it would know you are being disingenuous and you would go to hell.
it's not faking belief, belief is an ever conscious act and a choice you make, when you believe in a religion, there are certain requirements and rituals that you must perform in the presence or absence of people to prove your belief, if you did them then you are proving that you believe in God, and you do them and believe by choice.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:37 PM   #413
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Why is one more plausible than the other? They are both inventions of folklore, in my opinion.

I mean that genuinely. Why is an all-powerful deity a more plausible concept than a fat dude who delivers presents?
Let me put it this way: what do you think it more plausible, the existence of Santa Claus or the existence of extraterrestrial life?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:37 PM   #414
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
But it wouldn't be faked belief, it would be belief due to fear of God. It is essentially a rather strong concept for Protestants, since they believe in salvation by faith alone (sola fide), but useless for pretty much everybody else.
It would be faked, since it's not genuine belief. What he is essentially saying is, "You might as well believe".

It's due to fear, but it's still not genuine belief. You are pretending to believe due to the fear of potentially going to hell. You cannot truly believe in something unless you genuinely do believe in it. Even if I wanted to believe in God, I couldn't force myself to do it.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:39 PM   #415
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Let me put it this way: what do you think it more plausible, the existence of Santa Claus or the existence of extraterrestrial life?
Extraterrestrial life, of course. Given the size of the universe, there's a very good chance there is life elsewhere. They aren't comparable.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:42 PM   #416
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

The chance of existing extraterrestrial life is way bigger than the chance of existing a superior power.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:44 PM   #417
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
if you want to tailor the definition of atheism on your own perception and the way you "think" it should be, be my guest, I was telling you that atheism in fact is a broad concept and I posted links discussing different types of atheism.
It's not what I think it should be. It is the actual definition of atheism. Your links amount to little more than a bastardisation of the term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habibko View Post
it's not faking belief, belief is an ever conscious act and a choice you make, when you believe in a religion, there are certain requirements and rituals that you must perform in the presence or absence of people to prove your belief, if you did them then you are proving that you believe in God, and you do them and believe by choice.
It is faking belief. Let's say, for example, Pacal's Wager demanded that you believe in Santa. Could you force yourself to believe that Santa actually exists? Of course you couldn't. You can't just wake up one day and say, "I think I'll decide to believe in Santa today".

God is supposedly omniscient. Unless you truly believe he exists, he will know you are faking. Therefore, Pacal's Wager is nonsense.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:46 PM   #418
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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The chance of existing extraterrestrial life is way bigger than the chance of existing a superior power.
Precisely.

On top of that, which God are we even referring to? There are so many that various people believe in. When you get into the various specific claims that different religions make, the existence of a deity becomes even less likely.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:48 PM   #419
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
It would be faked, since it's not genuine belief. What he is essentially saying is, "You might as well believe".

It's due to fear, but it's still not genuine belief. You are pretending to believe due to the fear of potentially going to hell. You cannot truly believe in something unless you genuinely do believe in it. Even if I wanted to believe in God, I couldn't force myself to do it.
You're right, and Pascal knew about it too, and actually most of his writings on his "wager" address this point. Is it possible to force oneself to belief? That's the first of many flaws of his theory, which I don't find that praiseworthy to begin with, since I believe any slightly intelligent adult could come to that conclusion pretty easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Extraterrestrial life, of course. Given the size of the universe, there's a very good chance there is life elsewhere. They aren't comparable.
Of course they aren't, neither is Santa Claus-God. I'm sure you're sick and tired of listening to the "reasons" for God existence and I don't feel like going through them either, but I do think they are a lot, as in a lot stronger than the ones supporting Santa Claus's existence, just as is the case with aliens.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:50 PM   #420
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Default Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by GlennMirnyi View Post
The chance of existing extraterrestrial life is way bigger than the chance of existing a superior power.
How do you know? Both are beliefs, you can't prove any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habibko View Post
it's not faking belief, belief is an ever conscious act and a choice you make, when you believe in a religion, there are certain requirements and rituals that you must perform in the presence or absence of people to prove your belief, if you did them then you are proving that you believe in God, and you do them and believe by choice.
This is wrong. Also, you are confusing religion and God again.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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