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Old 10-20-2007, 11:43 AM   #46
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

Hi,guys!i just wanted to say that what you are doing here is great...finally there is a thread where we can show the real face of Serbia,not the one so many people have on their mind...i,myself,am not Serbian but i swear that every time i read or hear something full of hate to the country and it`s nation i take if personally and it makes me both mad and sad.it`s because usually those things are said by people who know nothing about Serbia,it`s history and culture but they are norrow-minded enough to don`t even try to build their own opinion about the things surroundind them,they only depend of what they have been said by the others...to be complitely honest it`s normal that they have heard so many bad things about Serbia and it`s past but none of them has even checked what`s right and what`s wrong,they have accepted it as the only truth coz it`s much easier to hate something than try to know it...Serbia is a beautiful country,with a difficult,sad and very complicated history and i`m sure that it`s future will be much brighter but not that easier..a lot is done for the better but there is much more to come!but the Serbs are great people with great spirit and self belief and i know that they will keep on finding their best way coz their deserve it.The Serbians have all the best of the Balkanian personality and they are keeping it without trying to follow any foreign standarts and steriotypes.that`s why i respect them so much as a nation and that`s why i love them and i am always ready to fight when it comes to Serbia and Serbia`s nation!
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:43 PM   #47
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

interesting read.

i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.

there's been a documentary about kosovo-albanians who fled their region in the 90s and came over to germany back then, that's why this occured to me. about 90% of them said that their kids wanted to stay in germany no matter what happens down there and only the old ones who have feelings and lots of memories about their home country wanna go back. i was stunned by these numbers, but on the other hand, many of the guys in my generation who are kosovo-albanians in germany are pretty much "germanized", growing up here, going to university (lots of good guys at my university come from kosovo) and most of the time speaking way better german than albanian. plus most of them have double citizenship after a while which makes it easier for them to stay and work/earn in a developed country whereas in kosovo they'd have to start from scratch.

anyways, just wondering what your actual links with serbia are and what your mindset about that is. i understand bascule just refused to leave though. hats off to you!
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Old 10-20-2007, 01:11 PM   #48
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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I appreciate no more talk about banning/non-banning of members of the board in this thread.

As Deb and I had mentioned in GM before, if you feel any posts that's offending, please use the report button and give a clear and non-offensive explanation.
Thank you, Lee.

Gentlemen (ladies?)...I have read a great deal about the conflict of the 90's in your part of the world. As I try to maintain a neutral stance before making any conclusions, I believe that to simply state that the vast majority of information available in the United States about Serbia is slanted and unbiased is intellectually unfounded. Painting this history with broad strokes under the title of "mainstream media" (which appears in your eyes to include organizations like Amnesty International and the World Court) is unacceptable to me.

HOWEVER, I AM willing to read/and/or view any texts, films, etc. about that era if you can point me in that direction. Please provide information about the qualifications of the individuals who are producing this material. Are they viewed in their respective academic circles as respected luminaries? Or are they mavericks whose views are akin to the ridiculous "refutation" of the Holocaust in Germany?

Also, as I stated in the tennis forum, do NOT assume that my views mirror those I mentioned. All I simply mentioned was that there are stereotypes present...and that, at times, people feel particular acts of individuals in said groups reinforce these stereotypes. However, more often than not, the stereotypes prove to be WRONG. (The film Crash does a wonderful job delving into this point). But I digress...

My point was that there are MANY individual I personally know who feel (unfortunately) that the stereotypes about Serbians are true. To attack me for posting these comments and wishing that I be banned was going overboard. Creating this subforum to discuss these ideas was a good idea. Believe me: taking offense because stereotypes are discussed does no good. I know...for I have found that simply expressing rage and anger at the mere mention of stereotypes does nothing but fuel more rage and anger. Intellectual proofs are the best and ONLY way to deal with stereotypes. And I actually thought this might happen...but I was wrong.

With respect to the "one life, all of humanity comment", please note: this is a common teaching in Judaism, Islam, and other religious traditions. I might argue, though I don't necessarily believe it, that your comments in response to my comment show cynicism about my sincerity and undercurrent of bias and dislike against that population (i.e. the Muslim population).

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone (including the individuals on this board presently). Let us move forward. However, I still stand by my convictions that support along national lines by any nation ultimately leads to more pain and suffering. And that tribalism needs to go the way of the dinosaur.
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:36 PM   #49
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
interesting read.

i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.

there's been a documentary about kosovo-albanians who fled their region in the 90s and came over to germany back then, that's why this occured to me. about 90% of them said that their kids wanted to stay in germany no matter what happens down there and only the old ones who have feelings and lots of memories about their home country wanna go back. i was stunned by these numbers, but on the other hand, many of the guys in my generation who are kosovo-albanians in germany are pretty much "germanized", growing up here, going to university (lots of good guys at my university come from kosovo) and most of the time speaking way better german than albanian. plus most of them have double citizenship after a while which makes it easier for them to stay and work/earn in a developed country whereas in kosovo they'd have to start from scratch.

anyways, just wondering what your actual links with serbia are and what your mindset about that is. i understand bascule just refused to leave though. hats off to you!
Hi, nice post, glad you're interested. I studdied electrical engineering just because I wanted to live better than my parents, and because I dreamed of Canada after my studdies (that was possible then),but there came the war, we had no money, lived with 10-20 $ for one whole month, and I lost lot of time on political protests against Milosevic, sanctions, beating students, stopping the war and cheating on elections. I lived several years working on black market selling music on CDs and some other stuff. And it wasn't legal business, couse there was no legal business during the years of sanctions. And everything was corrupted. I don't like to be salesman and taking risk with law, so I decided to find the work (with my certificate). (Don't have to mention how hard was to get on those studdies and finish them, and then after the war begun western countries stopped approving our degrees, mostly). For a long time I couldn't find a job, when they see me among men on interview, they asked me usually why did I come, cause I'm female. It was pretty frustating because I didn't "know somebody who knew somebody". This year I'm working as a teacher in a techical high school, and my salary for last year was 4000$. (On black market selling matches you can earn much more). And this is temporary job. In january, I'll be free (haha). I did want to leave country, but had no money or support to do such thing. I have brother with kids in Berlin, they won't come back. Kids are born there, life is better and much more sure. My friends who left couldn't do it without their parents (I mean their money).
And my family from Croatia and Bosnia (just like Balkanboy)has gone to different countries (because of the program for helping refugees), and I think they are not crazy to come back, cause their homes are destroyed and croats want to put all young men in jails, and especially because of this pressure with jails, young people won't never go back to Croatia (that's good plan for Croatia to stay ethnically pure). They also took away all flats of serbs, so people from cities can't go back. That's with my proprety in Croatia, too, they took the flat from my grandma and destroy the house in village. I can't sell anything there to help my self. Even now, when you ask young and talented people from Serbia what will they do after studdies, they say: I'd like to go abroad.
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by adynadal View Post
Hi,guys!i just wanted to say that what you are doing here is great...finally there is a thread where we can show the real face of Serbia,not the one so many people have on their mind...i,myself,am not Serbian but i swear that every time i read or hear something full of hate to the country and it`s nation i take if personally and it makes me both mad and sad.it`s because usually those things are said by people who know nothing about Serbia,it`s history and culture but they are norrow-minded enough to don`t even try to build their own opinion about the things surroundind them,they only depend of what they have been said by the others...to be complitely honest it`s normal that they have heard so many bad things about Serbia and it`s past but none of them has even checked what`s right and what`s wrong,they have accepted it as the only truth coz it`s much easier to hate something than try to know it...Serbia is a beautiful country,with a difficult,sad and very complicated history and i`m sure that it`s future will be much brighter but not that easier..a lot is done for the better but there is much more to come!but the Serbs are great people with great spirit and self belief and i know that they will keep on finding their best way coz their deserve it.The Serbians have all the best of the Balkanian personality and they are keeping it without trying to follow any foreign standarts and steriotypes.that`s why i respect them so much as a nation and that`s why i love them and i am always ready to fight when it comes to Serbia and Serbia`s nation!
I really can't believe. You almost emberessed me. You speak of serbs with more love than themselves. That's very nice of you. Thank you for this post.
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Old 10-20-2007, 06:18 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by sawan66278 View Post
Thank you, Lee.

Gentlemen (ladies?)...I have read a great deal about the conflict of the 90's in your part of the world. As I try to maintain a neutral stance before making any conclusions, I believe that to simply state that the vast majority of information available in the United States about Serbia is slanted and unbiased is intellectually unfounded. Painting this history with broad strokes under the title of "mainstream media" (which appears in your eyes to include organizations like Amnesty International and the World Court) is unacceptable to me.

HOWEVER, I AM willing to read/and/or view any texts, films, etc. about that era if you can point me in that direction. Please provide information about the qualifications of the individuals who are producing this material. Are they viewed in their respective academic circles as respected luminaries? Or are they mavericks whose views are akin to the ridiculous "refutation" of the Holocaust in Germany?

Also, as I stated in the tennis forum, do NOT assume that my views mirror those I mentioned. All I simply mentioned was that there are stereotypes present...and that, at times, people feel particular acts of individuals in said groups reinforce these stereotypes. However, more often than not, the stereotypes prove to be WRONG. (The film Crash does a wonderful job delving into this point). But I digress...

My point was that there are MANY individual I personally know who feel (unfortunately) that the stereotypes about Serbians are true. To attack me for posting these comments and wishing that I be banned was going overboard. Creating this subforum to discuss these ideas was a good idea. Believe me: taking offense because stereotypes are discussed does no good. I know...for I have found that simply expressing rage and anger at the mere mention of stereotypes does nothing but fuel more rage and anger. Intellectual proofs are the best and ONLY way to deal with stereotypes. And I actually thought this might happen...but I was wrong.

With respect to the "one life, all of humanity comment", please note: this is a common teaching in Judaism, Islam, and other religious traditions. I might argue, though I don't necessarily believe it, that your comments in response to my comment show cynicism about my sincerity and undercurrent of bias and dislike against that population (i.e. the Muslim population).

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone (including the individuals on this board presently). Let us move forward. However, I still stand by my convictions that support along national lines by any nation ultimately leads to more pain and suffering. And that tribalism needs to go the way of the dinosaur.
You don't have to thank Lee, we didn't react, that's why you are still here. I really thought for a moment that you could be interesting person. But, can't believe what you really post, and you are 36 (are you?). I just can't compete with you, because of the level of my english. I simply don't have fond of words big enough which I need to write exactly my thoughts. I hope our friends here will make it better. Each forum has some rules, and one thing is the same: it's not alowed to insult people for their nationality or race. And you did just that. And you deserve to be banned. But would you hang yourself after beeing displaced (maybe this forum fulfills your life) was dilema in my head). You should apologize to all serbs in this forum. It was stupid and nasty (besides you were borring with dart cheater and you still are, you keep repeating this rubbish all over again, we all remembered your words, believe me, but you just repeat as a parrot although moderators even explained you what cheating in tennis means). We don't have problem to critisize Novak, but among normal people (it means not with you, Escude, GlenM, Allure,Jaap,...) And, yes, we were sarcastic while
joking around (that's in our blood).
Serbs are not bloodthirsty, not even cowards (far away from that). But, maybe you're gonna clearly see that here if you're interested to change your sick mind. Even if that is wrote in your encyclopedia, you shouldn't insult people with that. Enough!
With "mainstream media" we think on your TV stations and papers controlled by white house. USA bombed Serbia. It means USA was in war with Serbia. And that means,... you can conclude. Showing Serbs in bad manner gives to "NATO campaign" legitimacy (well known as war propaganda).
And, about our nationality, this guys here (except me) are half serbs, half croat, half slovenian, or something else, so why they are defending "bloodthirsty" serbs here, what do you think?

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Old 10-20-2007, 08:06 PM   #52
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I really can't believe. You almost emberessed me. You speak of serbs with more love than themselves. That's very nice of you. Thank you for this post.
All my pleasure,as you said i did it with Love!
what i don`t understand is that thing about stereotypes you keep on takling about.will someone finally mention what exactly those stereotypes are?if somewhere around the world one of the stereotypes about Serbians is that they are "bloodthirsty" then this is just another proof that this world is going in such a wrong direction!!!why are Serbs thought to be "bloodthirsty"?because of the wars?does this than mean that they were thirsty for their own blood?Jesus...the more i am thinking about it the less i believe it or understand it!!!i know hundreds of Serbians of all ages and they are wonderful people who have suffered a lot and had so many difficulties in their lives but managed to save their souls,thier personality,their love to life and people...
maybe nowadays Serbians are thirsty for happiness,success,glory,money and good enough future for their children but i don`t see anything wrong with this,they want what every other normal person does,the difference is that it`s been really hard for them to have it in the past and it`s still not as simple as it is in half of the rest of the world...
i don`t wanna talk about the wars,i don`t even wanna think about them but when there is a war,there is more than one side fighting and there is more than one point of view.Serbia has had lots of wars in which died a lot of people,including Serbians.i can`t understand why the Serbians are called "bloodthirsty" when they were not the only side involved and most of all the only side killing...Oh God...
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
i got one question though: as i check the stats of serbia (economic growth etc.) i was wondering if anyone of you is actually planning to go back to serbia in the near future (or to bascule: never thought about leaving in the first place?). i understand that aloimeh is pretty much american (just roots in the balkans region), i'm not sure about balkan boy though. do you guys get ready to go back "home" soon? i mean, things don't look that bad and given the fact that you guys are probably able to make quite a lot of money compared to serbian living standards as of now, it'd be pretty easy to just relocate money-wise.
I know you didn't ask me, but I will answer anyway

The problem is for the majority of people living abroad, the quality of life abroad is still better than moving back to Serbia. Of course it depends on the job obtained etc, but in my case, my dad did his doctorate abroad in Canada in the late 80s/early 90s (I was born in Serbia, then went to Canada when I was 10 months old, came back to Serbia when I was 3/4 and moved to the UK when I was 6) and wanted to come and live in Serbia. Unfortunately, my mother got ill and with hyper-inflation, no one could afford the medication. So my dad got a job as a lecturer in the UK. So he's doing much better financially here, then he ever could do in Serbia.

Secondly, if they spend a lot of time there, people will inevitabley put down roots. My dad was always planning on going back after he retired, but he's married an Englishwoman, so I don't see it happening Also, job, friends etc.

Also, a lot of kids who come over, lose their Serbian very quickly. I was lucky and was forced to keep it up by my parents (only Serbian spoken in the house), but a lot of parents don't do it and since kids want to fit in, English soon becomes their primary language because they speak it in school and then at home after school. Even with being forced to keep it up, my English is better than my Serbian

Of course, this is balanced by the fact that a lot of us still have such strong links with Serbia Apart from a few family members living in Canada/America/Russia/Germany, 99% of my family live in Serbia and I will usually visit at least twice a year and have done so since sanctions were done with. But to be honest, I can't see myself moving back there, unless I was working for an English company
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
adynadal says:
nowadays Serbians are thirsty for happiness,success,glory,money and good enough future for their children but i don`t see anything wrong with this,they want what every other normal person does,the difference is that it`s been really hard for them to have it in the past and it`s still not as simple as it is in half of the rest of the world...
That's right and I tried already to explain to some people why there are so much serbs on this forum lately, also why do we (almost all, but not all, if you look carefully) "only cheer for Djokovic" - Sawan666 doesn't understand that (what means he doesn't know much about little countries) and calls us all nationalists (in bad way) because of that?! He probably thinks we hate all other players, but did he see how serbs congrats to mario, even if some croat fan is provocating serbs before that. And did any serb said something bad about Nalbi today, no, they all spoke of his good game,...Of course, "We're no angels", as movie says, but far from being "bad guys" on this forum.
adynadal, it's always better with friends.

Quote:
Lossi says:
I know you didn't ask me, but I will answer anyway

The problem is for the majority of people living abroad, the quality of life abroad is still better than moving back to Serbia. Of course it depends on the job obtained etc, but in my case, my dad did his doctorate abroad in Canada in the late 80s/early 90s (I was born in Serbia, then went to Canada when I was 10 months old, came back to Serbia when I was 3/4 and moved to the UK when I was 6) and wanted to come and live in Serbia. Unfortunately, my mother got ill and with hyper-inflation, no one could afford the medication. So my dad got a job as a lecturer in the UK. So he's doing much better financially here, then he ever could do in Serbia.

Secondly, if they spend a lot of time there, people will inevitabley put down roots. My dad was always planning on going back after he retired, but he's married an Englishwoman, so I don't see it happening Also, job, friends etc.

Also, a lot of kids who come over, lose their Serbian very quickly. I was lucky and was forced to keep it up by my parents (only Serbian spoken in the house), but a lot of parents don't do it and since kids want to fit in, English soon becomes their primary language because they speak it in school and then at home after school. Even with being forced to keep it up, my English is better than my Serbian

Of course, this is balanced by the fact that a lot of us still have such strong links with Serbia Apart from a few family members living in Canada/America/Russia/Germany, 99% of my family live in Serbia and I will usually visit at least twice a year and have done so since sanctions were done with. But to be honest, I can't see myself moving back there, unless I was working for an English company
Yes, Lossi, he did ask you, he ask all of us and you gave a good question. It's just like you said. And I'm glad for you that your dad was able to get that job and provide you better quality of life.
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:45 PM   #55
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adynadal, it's always better with friends.
sure!

Btw,you mentioned that Serbia is a small country and this is one of the reasons for the obssession everyone in Serbia has about Nole these days but concerning the fact that Serbia really has niether traditions nor successes in men`s tennis i can`t figure out anything that seemes more logical than Novak to be a hero for the whole nation...but what surprise me the most is the reaction of the "foreigners" coz i`m sure that if big countries like Germany,Italy and even the USA had players with the skills and achievements of Novak they would threat them exactly the same way.just look at the whole craziness that followed Murray`s successes in a huge(in every aspect)country as Great Britian and Andy has still not achierved half of what Nole has ...
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:56 PM   #56
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Yes, Lossi, he did ask you, he ask all of us and you gave a good question. It's just like you said. And I'm glad for you that your dad was able to get that job and provide you better quality of life.
We got lucky. My dad basically worked his ass off in university, since his parents had no money and managed to go to Canada to do his doctorate, which opened the door to the UK.

Have you seen any of the figure on how much money the diaspora brings into Serbia? It's amazing.

Also, on the subject of why so many Serbian fans now...tennis coverage in Serbia was abysmal before Nole I've found a lot more of my friends and family follow tennis in general, because of the coverage and Nole (and Ana and Jelena of course)
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Old 10-21-2007, 02:30 PM   #57
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

I have to disagree with what adynadal said. Serbia is no longer held in scorn in Europe. when Milosevic was overthrown by his people, Europeans opened up their arms to the Serbs. Sure there is pressure for serbia to cooperate with bringing Mladic and co. to trial but many EU nations like Spain and Slovakia are against Kosovo gaining its independance.

Kosovo will be like Taiwan. Independant in all but name with the northern tip in Serb control. And it should remain like that.
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Old 10-21-2007, 07:50 PM   #58
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Hi, everyone!

I don't have a time now to read all that has been written here and talk about this subject long and reasonably, cause I got it all too personaly, but...

I think it's sad we've (Serbs)come to this-we are coming here to talk about tennis, and now, we feel humiliated and obliged to change other people opinions about our nation.

The demage has been done and neither Novak nor us (doesn't metter how well we are educated or cultivated)can change the global image of Serbia.I don't want to talk about people and factors that determined it, it is a long and complex story and something is beyond our recognition.May be later.


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Originally Posted by bascule View Post
All 3 facts are very bad, believe me, especially in Serbia. Like you, when they see I'm woman, they put my CV in trash! (sexism rules here, especially for "men's" jobs).
I agree with you...I'm not in "men's" job, but I live in province, so there you can find sexism at it's best!Unfortunatelly, telling that here won't provide better picture of Serbia, but let's be sincere, sexism and bad staff selection are major problems here...
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jones View Post
I have to disagree with what adynadal said. Serbia is no longer held in scorn in Europe. when Milosevic was overthrown by his people, Europeans opened up their arms to the Serbs. Sure there is pressure for serbia to cooperate with bringing Mladic and co. to trial but many EU nations like Spain and Slovakia are against Kosovo gaining its independance.

Kosovo will be like Taiwan. Independant in all but name with the northern tip in Serb control. And it should remain like that.
Hi!
I`ll be completely honest and I`ll say that every time it comes to Kosovo i`m afraid not just to talk about it but even to think about it.I never dare to take any side or have my own opinion about it because i know how painful this might be for too many people and i know how sensitive people get when Kosovo`s status is concerned...
I only know that i feel sorry for everyone who lives there because it`s not easy for niether for the albanians nor for the Serbs...
I know how much Kosovo means for every Serbian,how important it was in Serbia`s history and that`s why i just don`t see the end of this problem in a peaceful way,I`m sorry to say it but that`s how i feel it in my heart...let`s hope i`m wrong !
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Old 10-22-2007, 03:50 PM   #60
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

Announcement by moderator:
There were lately very many rude, insulting, swearing posts against other posters and even against whole nations in heated discussions where tennis -and nothing else- should be the main objective. This especially involved the users Sawan66278, GlennMiryni and dimonator133. We are looking at these cases in order to decide if -and if yes, what- further steps are going to be taken. They should use this time to think about their general behaviour and respectful interactions with other persons.

Well, they reacted. Good. Hope this will manage the problem.
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