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Old 10-20-2007, 04:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:18 AM   #17
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...tory_of_Kosovo

Quote:
[edit] 14th century
The Dečani Charter from 1330 contained detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania:

3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being non-Albanian.
Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic mostly Serbian.
The non-Serbian population of Kosovo didn't exceed 2% by the end of the 14th century.


[edit] 15th century
1455: Turkish cadastral tax census (defter)[1] of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). Totally there were around 75,000 inhabitants in 590 villages comprising modern-day Kosovo. By ethnicity:

12,985 Serbian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
1487: A census of the House of Branković Ottoman

Vučitrn district:
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Priština and Vučitrn)
117 Moslem households (94 in Priština and 83 in rural areas)
Scutari district:
Ipek district:
City of Ipek - 68% Slavs
121 Christian household
33 Moslem households
Suho Grlo and Metohija:
131 Christian household of who 52% in Suho Grlo were Slavs
Donja Klina - 50% Slavs
Dečani - 64% Slavs
Rural areas:
6,124 Christian housings (99%)
55 Moslem houses (1%)

[edit] 17th - 18th century
The Great Turkish War of 1683-1699 between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Kosovan Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 60-70,000 Serb refugees total settled in the Habsburg Monarchy in that time of whom many were from Kosovo. Following this an influx of Catholic Albanian[2] from the highlands (Malesi) occurred, mostly into Metohija. The process continued in 18th century.[2]

The same was repeated during the Second Migration of Serbs in 1737.


[edit] 19th century
19th century data about the population of Kosovo tend to be rather conflicting, giving sometimes numerical superiority to the Serbs and sometimes to the Albanians. The Ottoman statistics are regarded as unreliable, as the empire counted its citizens by religion rather than nationality, using birth records rather than surveys of individuals.

A study in 1838 by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character.[3] Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirke) of Prizren, Peć and Đakovica which roughly covered Metohija, the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Metohija, Müller found:

114,000 Muslims (58%):
c. 38,000 are Serbs (19%)
c. 76,000 are Albanians (39%)
Christians:
73,572 Eastern Orthodox Serbs (38%)
5,120 Roman Catholic Albanians (3%)
2,308 other non-Muslims (Janjevci etc.)
Müller's observations on towns:

Peć: 11,050 Serbs, 500 Albanians
Prizren: 16,800 Serbs, 6150 Albanians
Đakovica: majority of Albanians, surrounding villages Serbian
Map published by French ethnographer G. Lejean[4] in 1861 shows that Albanians lived on around 57% of the territory of today's province while a similar map, published by British travellers G. M. Mackenzie and A. P. Irby[4] in 1867 shows slightly less; these maps don't show which population was larger overall.

A study done in 1871 by Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj[5] for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:

318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Romas (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks
Miloš S. Milojević travelled the region in 1871-1877 and left accounts which testify that Serbs were majority population, and were predominant in all cities, while Albanians were minority and lived mostly in villages.[6] According to his data, Albanians were majority population in southern Drenica (Muslim Albanians), and in region around Djakovica (Catholic Albanians), while the city was majorly Serbian. He also recorded several settlements of Turks, Romas and Circassians.

It is estimated that around 400,000[7] Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912 , especially during the Greek-Ottoman War in 1897.[8]

Maps published by German historian Kiepert[4] in 1876, J. Hahn[4] and Austrian consul K. Sax,[4] show that Albanians live on most of the territory of today's province, however they don't show which population is larger. According to these, the regions of Kosovska Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje were settled mostly by Serbs, whereas most of the terrirory of western and eastern parts of today's province was settled by Muslim Albanians.

An Austrian statistics[9] published in 1899 estimated:

182,650 Albanians (47.88%)
166,700 Serbs (43.7%)
Remaining 8.42% Tsintsars, Turks, Circassians, Romas and Jews
At the end of the 19th century, Spiridon Gopchevich, an Autrian traveller - comprised a statistics and published them in Vienna. They established that Prizren had 60,000 citizens of whome 11,000 were Christian Serbs and 36,000 Moslem Serbs. The remaining population were Turks, Albanians, Tzintzars and Gypsies. For Pec he said that it had 2,530 households of which 1,600 were Mohammedan, 700 Christian Serb, 200 Catholic Albanian and 10 Turkish.


[edit] 20th century
British journalist H. Brailsford estimated[10] that two-thirds of the population of Kosovo was Albanian and one-third Serbian. The most populous western districts of Djakovica and Pec were said to have between 20,000 and 25,000 Albanian households, as against some 5,000 Serbian ones. Map of Alfred Stead,[11] published in 1909 , shows that similar numbers of Serbs and Albanians were living in the territory.

German scholar Gustav Weigand gave the following statistical data about the population of Kosovo,[2] based on the pre-war situation in Kosovo in 1912:

Prishtina District: 67% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Prizreni District: 63% Albanians, 36% Serbs
Vučitrn District: 90% Albanians, 10% Serbs
Ferizaj (Uroševac) District: 70% Albanians, 30% Serbs
Gilani (Gnjilane) District: 75% Albanians, 23% Serbs
Mitrovica District: 60% Serbs, 40% Albanians
Metohija with the town of Đakovica (Gjakova) is furthermore defined as almost exclusively Albanian by Weigand.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
I think it is impossible to discuss history in such a large context. When multiple people are laying down allegations, it is difficult to make an argument. If one honest person is interested in hearing a different perspective, then they will calmly discuss the issues post by post and you can direct them to alternative sources.

But when it's a feeding frenzy with sawan, allure, glenn and who knows else snapping at "those Serbs" and "Serbian fans the worst" - there's little that can be argued.
It's true but all those people seem to me misinformed because of the long period of mainstream media bad rep. I'm sure people would visit this thread when it could be needed, when they cross the line. It's why it would be good to make a nice first post with videos and information but nothing too complex and too long. I think it's the best way to cure the virus
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:21 AM   #19
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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Originally Posted by bascule View Post
It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?
If what was said were true, it would be difficult to swallow. But given that so much was untrue or exaggerated or one-sided, it was a lot harder to take it. Actually, at college that sentiment was even worse (more liberal, and more awareness of international issues), but thankfully I started several years after the 1999 war so I was minimally exposed.

This is a good book on the 1998-1999 Kosovo war:

http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-...2854067&sr=8-1

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Old 10-20-2007, 04:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

BB, you are absolutly right about youtube, and Al, you're right about posts. And, what else we can do? I just can't believe we are talking about this, if somebody told me dozen years ago, I wouldn't believe. I was educated to be humanist and cosmopolitan. I traveled very much before this stinking war begun. But, I also always felt that I should do something good for society, if I'm able to, and that's the reason I spent so much time on street (during the wars) instead to study and think only of my own problem.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

These statistics are good, since they illustrate that the story of Nazi Serbia is totally false. One can see that around 1/3 of the population is not ethnically Serb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia

Quote:
The ethnic composition of Central Serbia and Vojvodina, according to the 2002 census[1]:

Serbia (excluding Kosovo) Central Serbia Vojvodina
Number % Number % Number %
TOTAL 7,498,001 100 5,466,009 100 2,031,992 100
Serbs 6,212,844 82.86 4,891,031 89.48 1,321,807 65.05
Montenegrins 69,049 0.92 33,536 0.61 35,513 1.75
Yugoslavs 80,721 1.08 30,840 0.56 49,881 2.45
Albanians 61,647 0.82 59,952 1.1 1,695 0.08
Bosniaks 136,087 1.82 135,670 2.48 417 0.02
Bulgarians 20,497 0.27 18,839 0.34 1,658 0.08
Bunjevci 20,012 0.27 246 0 19,766 0.97
Gorani 4,581 0.06 3,975 0.07 606 0.03
Croats 70,602 0.94 14,056 0.26 56,546 2.78
Macedonians 25,847 0.35 14,062 0.26 11,785 0.58
Muslims (by nationality) 19,503 0.26 15,869 0.29 3,634 0.18
Roma and Sinti 108,193 1.44 79,136 1.45 29,057 1.43
Vlachs 40,054 0.53 39,953 0.73 101 0
Romanians 34,576 0.46 4,157 0.08 30,419 1.5
Germans 3,901 0.05 747 0.01 3,154 0.16
Ruthenes 15,905 0.21 279 0.01 15,626 0.77
Russians 2,588 0.03 1,648 0.03 940 0.05
Slovaks 59,021 0.79 2,384 0.04 56,637 2.79
Slovenes 5,104 0.07 3,099 0.06 2,005 0.1
Czechs 2,211 0.03 563 0.01 1,648 0.08
Ukrainians 5,354 0.07 719 0.01 4,635 0.23
Hungarians 293,299 3.91 3,092 0.06 290,207 14.28
Others 11,711 0.16 6,400 0.12 5,311 0.26
Unspecified 107,732 1.44 52,716 0.97 55,016 2.71
Unknown 75,483 1.01 51,709 0.95 23,774 1.17
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:26 AM   #22
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Well, sawan posted one offending post after another. And he has been doing this disgusting ethnic insinuation on Djokovic threads before. I don't know why this is seen as acceptable. I'm not sure that that would be the case if some other ethnicity were being abused on a GM forum.
Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the subforum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.

Last edited by Lee : 10-20-2007 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lee View Post
Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the forum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.
OK. Next time I see him doing that kind of stuff, it will be reported.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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It's SAMO SLOGA SRBINA SPASAVA. When did you leave Bosnia, Balkanboy? Did you have less problems in Canada then Aloimeh in USA (I guess so), or you're not even in Canada?
Aloimeh , how did you feel then (you were only 15), did that make you feel less worth than other children at school? It must be terrible for you, cause you are born american. Have you ever been in Serbia? (Guess you have relatives here and in Slovenia). Samo me zanima informativno, ok, nema ljutis?
In 1995(was 10) and I'm in the French part of Canada so English is my third language, I'm sure you noticed that all with my numerous writing mistakes. And I really don't rememeber anything related to ethnic problems here... I never felt that but when there is racism, I think they all put us in the same bag and don't make differences ( For exemple when they read your name while you're applying for a job, you be Serb, Croat, Muslim or Black, your C.V is going in the trash )
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:31 AM   #25
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

It is a little known fact that while Serbia was under sanctions, Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims took advantage of the public relations firm Ruder Finn, which shaped the media reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruder_Finn

Quote:
Ruder Finn is an United States public relations firm founded in 1948 by David Finn and William Ruder.

Ruder Finn is a privately held, family-owned company that employs more than 450 people. Its public relations cover healthcare, technology, consumer, interactive, media, arts and culture, and environmental programming.[specify]

Since 1978, Ruder Finn has maintained an executive-training program, which approximately 20% of Ruder Finn employees have participated in to date.

Ruder Finn's first client was Perry Como, and was followed by celebrity clients such as Dinah Shore, Frankie Laine, The Mills Brothers, Jack Lemmon and Rosalind Russell. Other clients include Novartis, Travel Alberta, Twinings Tea, glaceau, and Air France. They also represented Bosniaks and Croats in the Yugoslav wars.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:34 AM   #26
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
Have any of you reported those posts before and explained to moderators why the posts are offensive? I am not moderators of GM so I don't really know whether those posts were reported or not.

And if you have reported those posts and no action was taken, you can send PM to moderators and asked for an explanation. I can assure you these actions will be more effective than complaining or responding to those posts in the threads.

Moderators may not have read those posts as it's impossible for us to read every posts on these forum. Even in the forum where forum moderators are responsible for. So we rely mainly on posters reporting posts. Moreover, as I said before, we are not know-it-all. Moderators may read something but may not realise the implications there.

I tuned out of a lot of the posts in Nole's threads in GM so even I read thru the thread, I still did not read some of the posts.
When I wanted to report as Deb said, his post was deleted at the moment. Then second post appeared, when he citated himself. I tried with that sign ! right down on the left side and I put the reasons, but it seems, my raport wasn't accepted and I've been told to send message to moderator, I don't remember right. If he deleted his posts, could I still do this?
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:45 AM   #27
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

That's some good stuff there Al and you could add this link to your first post as it describe rapidly some part of history and is made by a non-Serb authour.

http://www.greece.org/themis/action_press/serbia.htm

I think people will be more interested if all pertinent information is concentrated in one post(the 1st one) because myself included, I rarly read every post in a thread, especially if they are several of them. Btw, you can Edit it
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:47 AM   #28
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Bascule where are you now(city) and how old are you?
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by bascule View Post
When I wanted to report as Deb said, his post was deleted at the moment. Then second post appeared, when he citated himself. I tried with that sign ! right down on the left side and I put the reasons, but it seems, my raport wasn't accepted and I've been told to send message to moderator, I don't remember right. If he deleted his posts, could I still do this?
You can send the link of the thread to moderators and mentioned who's the poster and approximately where the post was and it's content. Moderators can still read posts that are deleted.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: Serbian history and related issues

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
It is a little known fact that while Serbia was under sanctions, Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims took advantage of the public relations firm Ruder Finn, which shaped the media reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruder_Finn
It was quite obviously, but we never find out what happened concrete with this media war. And, we all know they won this war, cause our politicians were deaf and stubborn. And it was the most precious war to win.
I have lot of documentaries here, but you can also find them on DC++, some serbian or ex-yu hub. I have some documents, but mostly on serbian. What to do? Tell me? What are you interesting in? Should I find some documents and put here? Do you have documentaries on serbian and english from serbian tv, bbc, croat, bosnian tv, ect..
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