[Lopez]

Originally Posted by star

Well, not even them, no? Don't scholars pretty much agree that the gospels were written well after the lifetimes of the apostles? Even one of Paul's letters is not attributed to him.

Yeah they're written around the years 50-100. Correct ages can be found easily online but can't be arsed to check them right now.

Some even used the others as sources... Not exactly independent, eyewitness accounts

[mseles1]

Originally Posted by Echoes

I said it was defined in its oppposition to Judaism

I claim that Christianism is opposed to Judaism

Monica's posts are schizophrenic. S/he believes that Christians should simultaneously believe in hating and loving their enemies. Is that not schizophrenia?

Might be. It's true that we only know Jesus' words through the works of the apostles but in any case, in the Christian belief, Jesus is the Son of God, while Paul was a man like anybody.

Christianity opposed Judaism to the extent of stealing between 39-51 of it's books? Lest we forget the religion started out as a minor Jewish sect. It also doesn't remotely explain Jesus' two most important commandments being rooted in his Jewish roots. Matthew 22:37-39 (God & neighbour,) Mark 12:30-31 (God & neighbour,) Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (God,) and Leviticus 19:18 (neighbour.) Nothing new here!

No it's a contradiction.
I'm not the issue here. Men from Christianity's history put together the Christian canon, including books from the OT. A contradiction exists between the NT & OT. Newsflash plenty exist, plenty exist between the NT books too.

Depends on point of view. Man, God & man, messiah, son of God... Has an ability to change colour too.

[Wing Man Frank]

Echoes, what part of me saying Christopher Hitches was brilliant is funny?

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by Punky

even today ppl live In Galilee (beautiful place indeed), do u think they say "no we are Galileans we are not from israel?" there ppl who live in Judeans/Samaritan does it means they are not israeli who live in a place inside israel?

Classic mistake for a historian. Consider every historical period from the viewpoint of his era. When you consider a historical event you'll have to put yourself in the context of the time. At that time, Galilee and Judah were distinct.

And if Jesus happened to be a Judean, it wouldn't have changed a lot. He would've been one of those many Judeans/Jews who rightly emancipated from the Torah and still a great man. I am not a tribalist.

Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank

Echoes, what part of me saying Christopher Hitches was brilliant is funny?

Because you consider yourself a right-winger and yet you're quoting a Trotskyist left-winger. Trotskyist who turned neocon, just like so many (Kristol, Perle, Wolfowitz in the USA but there also are a lot of them in Europe).

Trotskyism and Neoconservatism seemed to oppose each other but they have in common their hatred of the common men, the Poor and the Weak and hatred of the Nations. They are nomadic and internationalists.

Hitchens' support for the Iraq War totally disqualifies him. Everything he's said.

[Wing Man Frank]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Classic mistake for a historian. Consider every historical period from the viewpoint of his era. When you consider a historical event you'll have to put yourself in the context of the time. At that time, Galilee and Judah were distinct.

And if Jesus happened to be a Judean, it wouldn't have changed a lot. He would've been one of those many Judeans/Jews who rightly emancipated from the Torah and still a great man. I am not a tribalist.



Because you consider yourself a right-winger and yet you're quoting a Trotskyist left-winger. Trotskyist who turned neocon, just like so many (Kristol, Perle, Wolfowitz in the USA but there also are a lot of them in Europe).

Trotskyism and Neoconservatism seemed to oppose each other but they have in common their hatred of the common men, the Poor and the Weak and hatred of the Nations. They are nomadic and internationalists.

Hitchens' support for the Iraq War totally disqualifies him. Everything he's said.

I don't consider myself a right-winger. I am very apathetic towards Politics as a whole.

Still, nice try.

[mseles1]

Originally Posted by Echoes

And if Jesus... He would've been one of those many Judeans/Jews who rightly emancipated from the Torah and still a great man.

Originally Posted by Echoes

The Jews invented racism in the OT.

Matthew 5:17-19 -
'Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets...'

Has emancipated's definition changed? If it hasn't, Jesus did not emancipate from the torah. Having wrote that no doubt there'll be numerous biblical quotes contradicting Matthew 5, usually the case.

Out of curiosity, where in the OT? Deuteronomy 7?

[Lopez]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Hitchens' support for the Iraq War totally disqualifies him. Everything he's said.

Wut? So one bad (in your mind) opinion or ideology by someone totally disqualifies every opinion that they hold and every argument they make?

So Aristotle is disqualified because he advocated wrong scientific principles regarding the nature of the solar system among other things? Isaac Newton is disqualified in science because he was religious?

I can use the same reasoning and say that many Christian Apologists' arguments about philosophy are void because they reject the fact of evolution and promote quackery such as creationism or intelligent design

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by mseles1

Matthew 5:17-19 -
'Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets...'

He again referred to the earlier tradition of Israelite universalism (which also had its Prophets and not Judahite tribalism.

His Law was based on but two commandments and not the 10 commandments of the Mosaic Law: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and Love thy neighbour like thyself."

Originally Posted by Lopez

Wut? So one bad (in your mind) opinion or ideology by someone totally disqualifies every opinion that they hold and every argument they make?

Cool. So the Iraq War is but a detail in recent History? How many dead, dude? How much destruction?

How come that all those 1970's Trotskyist activists all turned neocons in the 90's/00's? Is that all just coincidence? They just rejected collectivism but they kept the most dangerous part of Trotskyism: the permanent revolution and the destruction of the Frontier /borders. They are the enemy. They hate the common men who are rooted in their cultural environment and die-hard patriots.

As long as you found the key to the origin of species, the Iraqis may peg out? Is that what you mean?

Did my intellectual references support the Iraq War? Sir no sir.

[HumanCondition]

I take the safe way out and label myself as an agnostic. Buddhism is very interesting, though. I might be a Buddhist monk one day. Depends on my schedule.

[mseles1]

Originally Posted by Echoes

His Law was based on but two commandments and not the 10 commandments of the Mosaic Law: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and Love thy neighbour like thyself."

'I have come not to abolish but to complete them. Not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the law until its purpose is achieved. The man who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of heaven.'

Jesus' law was Jewish law. Both commandments are God's orders from the OT.
Mathhew 19:18-20 - Do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bring false witness, honour your mother & father, love your neighbour as yourself. These repeated Mark 10:19-20, omitting 'love neighbour...' and stating you must not defraud, again originally from Leviticus.

Ten commandments -
No Gods except me - Mark 10:18, No one is good but God alone.
Icons - God broke his own commandment, at the very least conveniently made exceptions. Images, idols, icons = major disagreement all round.
God's name in vain. Completely ignored in my experience by everyone. Maybe some Christians live by it?
Keep the sabbath holy - Jesus ignored this one. Matthew 12, Mark 2 & Luke 6.
Honour mother & father - Matthew 19 & Mark 10
Do not -
kill - Matthew 19 & Mark 10
Adultery - Matthew 19 & Mark 10
Steal - Matthew 19 & Mark 10
Bring false witness - Matthew 19 & Mark 10
Covet others possessions. Mark 7:22 - evil thoughts...covetousness. Paul also mentions numerous times, never advocating.

Argument against Jesus and the ten commandments is less than convincing. Jesus if anything beefed up the commandments, he certainly took a more conservative view. Do not commit adultery becomes, lustful looks = adultery.


The Jews invented racism in the OT.
Out of curiosity, where in the OT? Deuteronomy 7?