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Old 04-17-2010, 02:22 PM   #661
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by flender View Post
honestly I don't know any thing about tennis technique , spinning of the ball , game planning ( I only watch... try to play twice but fail ) I can't remember how did he play back in 2003 . it was long ago and that's when I started watching tennis so I don't know much .what I thought is jc's doing great but he needs to be a little more agressive ? change the way he plays . I compare the way he hit the ball with nole... his shot is a little bit short ? or may be that's the way he choose to hit the ball ... it would be great if he take more risk on playing winners ... I saw the stat after matches , he always has less winners than the opponents no matter he win or lose , but may be it's his style to gain points by forcing the otherside to make errors ?? please correct me if I'm wrong
just my oppinion although I don't play tennis myself lol what u guys think?
the commentators said during he played rafa , she said both played quite at the same level ( in the first set ) but the result seem way different ... may be it's about chance ?? I don't know
jc 's doing great and it would be nice to see him climb a little up rankings !
Interesting discussion, flender!
I don't play tennis much myself either and am hopeless at it, I just love watching the sport so I may be wrong with what I am going to write.
But I think that JC used to have many more winner in 2001-2003, especially 2003, because his serve was much more powerful and he had a lot of free points on his serve. I remember he had more than 20 aces against Hewitt in USO QF in 2003.
He did have more non-serve winners too. Also in USO 2003, he had 28 FH winners in SF against Agassi alone. I don't know exactly why he has fewer winners these days, but I get an impression that his FH used to have much more pace. During his title drought years, maybe he played too defensive and his shots were often short. But this year, especially in Buenos Aires and Acapulco, I think his shots had depth and he was hitting more lines.

But his error count has always been low, which is the case with most players who excel on clay. I guess that is because those players are very good at using spins.

I also think we have to be careful so that we don't confuse players who make few UEs with those who play just safe and wait for the opponent's errors. I think those two are not always the same things. People who don't like claycourters in general tend to insist those players just wait for the opponent to make errors---which may be true with some players, and sometimes that's the right strategy against players who self-destruct with their own errors. BUT accomplished clay court players are all good returners who can retrieve what would have otherwise been a winner---then the opponent, not expecting the ball to come back, get rushed into making an error: just like Tsonga who couldn't return JC's passing shot when he broke the Frenchman's serve to go up 3-1 in the thrid set of their encounter this week.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:55 PM   #662
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

This is an excellent discussion. Flender you got to it before me - I have many of the same questions that you have. And Bunny, I actually thought that you actively played tennis because of your fast identification of the shots when you're commentating online and your general understanding of the game. You seem to have absorbed a tremendous amount simply by watching the sport.

#1. Bunny, it's interesting that you mention that JC's serve was stronger in 2003. Because in the interview (thanks for posting it) JC says that he is stronger now. Perhaps he means in general or is referring to his groundstrokes only. Why wouldn't his serve be stronger now if he's in such better shape? (Don't feel pressured to give an answer- but educated guesses are much appreciated )

#2. BUT accomplished clay court players are all good returners who can retrieve what would have otherwise been a winner---then the opponent, not expecting the ball to come back, get rushed into making an error:

Ok, that links back to the answer you gave me regarding JC's inability to hit the corners when he played Rafa.

Actually JC was hitting lines in patches, and missed the lines several times in the second set after being in control of the rallies. He was definitely attacking, but at the same time he was rushed because Rafa is so quick on his wheels.

We all know that Rafa at his best is a human backboard (and then some) and has the ability to return most anything. But when you say he is so quick on his wheels, are you referring to his taking the balls early, cutting off the angles, changing the direction of his groundstrokes?

#3 - but may be it's his (JC's )style to gain points by forcing the other side to make errors ??

I was wondering the same thing Flender. Is the term for that type of player a "counterpuncher"? Or is he/she just playing defensively? (This question is for anyone here)

I also do not play tennis and so I never know how much of a player's inability to win on a given day is due to nerves, physical fatigue, or simply being outplayed by the opponent.

Looking forward to some educated guesses.
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Old 04-17-2010, 04:43 PM   #663
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

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Originally Posted by minh View Post
Sorry, I don't know how i have to do now, anyone can help me??
Since you don't seem to be around, I'll start the Barca thread now. Hope you (and other posters here!) don't mind!
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:18 PM   #664
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

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Originally Posted by Ariel View Post
This is an excellent discussion. Flender you got to it before me - I have many of the same questions that you have. And Bunny, I actually thought that you actively played tennis because of your fast identification of the shots when you're commentating online and your general understanding of the game. You seem to have absorbed a tremendous amount simply by watching the sport.
Nah I fear I may often be wrong with identification of the shots!

Quote:
#1. Bunny, it's interesting that you mention that JC's serve was stronger in 2003. Because in the interview (thanks for posting it) JC says that he is stronger now. Perhaps he means in general or is referring to his groundstrokes only. Why wouldn't his serve be stronger now if he's in such better shape? (Don't feel pressured to give an answer- but educated guesses are much appreciated )
I think he means he's generally more stronger, physically as well as mentally. He definitely had more free points on serve in 2003. Maybe the opponents now are becoming better returners of serve? After all, now they have to deal with Karlovic's and Isner's serve! lol
But I think JCe's still got one of the best kick second serve on tour.

Quote:
#2. BUT accomplished clay court players are all good returners who can retrieve what would have otherwise been a winner---then the opponent, not expecting the ball to come back, get rushed into making an error:

Ok, that links back to the answer you gave me regarding JC's inability to hit the corners when he played Rafa.

Actually JC was hitting lines in patches, and missed the lines several times in the second set after being in control of the rallies. He was definitely attacking, but at the same time he was rushed because Rafa is so quick on his wheels.

We all know that Rafa at his best is a human backboard (and then some) and has the ability to return most anything. But when you say he is so quick on his wheels, are you referring to his taking the balls early, cutting off the angles, changing the direction of his groundstrokes?
I think it's a mixture of many things. It's not always that Rafa takes the ball early, but he does so sometimes, and with his fast footwork and tremendous racket head speed the ball flies at an incredible speed with those heavy spins to the furthest corner from the opponent.

This is what JC said after playing Rafa:

"I think he was playing a little bit more aggressive [than Jo-Wilfried Tsonga]," said Ferrero. "I didn't have the time that I had before. I had to push with my forehand all the time, and I think I missed some easy balls in important moments. I had the impression that I dominates the points a lot of times, [but] I couldn't finish."
http://www.monte-carlorolexmasters.c...on-Report.aspx

Quote:
#3 - but may be it's his (JC's )style to gain points by forcing the other side to make errors ??

I was wondering the same thing Flender. Is the term for that type of player a "counterpuncher"? Or is he/she just playing defensively? (This question is for anyone here)

I also do not play tennis and so I never know how much of a player's inability to win on a given day is due to nerves, physical fatigue, or simply being outplayed by the opponent.

Looking forward to some educated guesses.
JC used to be categorised as an aggressive baseliner, and I think that's his most comfortable playing style when he is playing well. He acquired more defensive style from 2004, when he succumbed to chicken pox and a series of injuries and lost some footwork and power on his FH. These days you could say he's more balanced, I think his defence is maybe better than when he was No. 1 but his attacking play is sometimes not powerful enough to hurt some top players.

But I may be blabbing rubbish. I need more insightful answers!
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:24 PM   #665
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

I find this quote from Tsonga's postmatch interview interesting too.

Q. You used your backhand pretty well, especially down the line. Remember that first match point? You didn't use that kind of backhand against Almagro.
JO WILFRIED TSONGA: I tried to be aggressive. They are two different players. Almagro hits harder, so I can't do that kind of shot against him. But Ferrero plays more flat and he steps into the court, so it's a good idea to use that shot with him.

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I guess Tsonga is saying that for a Spaniard, JC doesn't always use spin but hits flat and steps inside the court as well, which ultimately makes him a more attacking player.
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:14 PM   #666
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

I think it's a bit unfair to classify 2009-2010 JC as a player who looks to draw errors from his opponent. There was a time, around 06-08, he was playing pretty passive tennis especially on clay, so it's no surprise that he's getting much better results now that he's reverted back to the aggressive baseline game he had pre 04/05.

Also hard to judge his winner/UE ratio as he's playing on clay right now and imo he can no longer hit through opponents with his FH like he used to, so he's relying more on point construction to get the job done. But, if you look back at most of his matches on grass last year or during the summer hard court season, you would see some top class JCF tennis and a lot of matches where he out-winnered his opponent
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Old 04-18-2010, 02:45 AM   #667
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

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Originally Posted by Fisico View Post
I think it's a bit unfair to classify 2009-2010 JC as a player who looks to draw errors from his opponent. There was a time, around 06-08, he was playing pretty passive tennis especially on clay, so it's no surprise that he's getting much better results now that he's reverted back to the aggressive baseline game he had pre 04/05.

Also hard to judge his winner/UE ratio as he's playing on clay right now and imo he can no longer hit through opponents with his FH like he used to, so he's relying more on point construction to get the job done. But, if you look back at most of his matches on grass last year or during the summer hard court season, you would see some top class JCF tennis and a lot of matches where he out-winnered his opponent
Agreed.
About point construction, he did have court craft even when he was younger, but I remember he often went for "hit harder and harder" style, maybe around 2002. Maybe that was youth. These days I think he's one of the smarter players on court, probably helped by his experience.
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Old 04-18-2010, 02:49 AM   #668
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

Finally, here's complete transcription of his postmatch interview after QF:

R. NADAL/J. Ferrero
64, 62

An interview with: JUAN CARLOS FERRERO

THE MODERATOR: Questions for Juan Carlos.

Q. The score was very close to the match you had here in 2008 with Rafa. The two matches are similar or you feel they were completely different?
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: Well, at the beginning I didn't start my best. I think I had the chance to win some more games, but I didn't.
He's always there. I mean, he's always where he has to be. He plays better in the important moments.
You know, I feel today that maybe I need some more power to get on the court three or four balls more in important moments, like in 5 4, beginning of second set. I felt a little bit tired today in some moments of the match.
You know, he was so powerful out there, yeah.

Q. In the other match, you were playing much more inside the court.
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: In the other match?

Q. The other matches you played before here. Is it because of his shot or your tiredness?
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: Yeah, I think he's playing a little bit more aggressive. I don't have maybe the time that I have before. And also, you know, I haven't the power that I had yesterday maybe to push and push all the time.
I had to push with my forehand all the time, and I think I missed some easy balls in important moments that I move him all the time. I have the impression that I was dominate the point a lot of times, and I couldn't finish.
So maybe I needed a little bit more power to push and push all the time.

Q. If you had to compare his level with the one he had the times you played before with him...
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: I think on clay, he is at the same high level. Of course, he has some bad matches on clay. But still he put a thousand balls on the court, and it's difficult to get him a winner.
So his bad days are good (smiling).

Q. What is your judgment about this match, your level at this moment?
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: I had the impression that I could make more. If I had hundred percent on the court, I think I could be more close in the score. I saw the statistics. Wasn't a lot of difference.
I mean, he did two more winners than me and two less errors. So, you know, it wasn't that big difference. But it's like this.

Q. You'll go to Barcelona now?

JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: Yes.

Q. No problems of train or plane to go there?
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: No.

Q. There are so many problems with planes in Europe at the moment.
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: No. ()

Q. You seemed to be more aggressive before the rain delay. Can you comment what you did before the delay?
JUAN CARLOS FERRERO: Well, with the wind, it was very difficult to be aggressive. But, you know, I try and try. But then when the match start, it was a little bit longer. When we play like an hour, I start to feel a little bit more tired than the beginning, and I couldn't push all the time that I was doing at the beginning.
I had to be very aggressive with my forehand if I wanted to win the match, you know, try to move him a lot to get him a little bit tired. I didn't do it.

FastScripts by ASAP Sports
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Old 04-18-2010, 02:52 AM   #669
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

And here's Rafa's interview. It's interesting where he talks about the difference between JC and Ferru's tennis:

An interview with: RAFAEL NADAL

THE MODERATOR: Questions for Rafa.

Q. Are you satisfied with your performance, your form, everything?
RAFAEL NADAL: Yeah, sure. To be in semifinals is a very good start of the clay season, sure. Sure, the result against probably one of the tougher opponents right now on clay is very good one, 6 4, 6 2. So I did well.
I think when the weather was reasonable well, I played well, I think, no? I had good control of the ball. When I attack with the forehand, I did well. I played the backhand with couple mistakes. So I played complete match.
And I served much better today. My serve was much better today than the rest of the three days. That's very important, too.

Q. There was never any moment when you think you played poorly?
RAFAEL NADAL: 3 2, with the weather conditions, probably I lost little bit the concentration there, so... That's the only thing of the match I am not very happy.

Q. How different is it going to be the match with Ferrer? What is the big difference between the two players? Since you have lost to Ferrer at the US Open and Masters Cup, clay for you is much different for you than probably for him?
RAFAEL NADAL: He is better player on clay I think, too. No, be really tough match. The style of Ferrero and Ferrer is different, is not the same. So Juan Carlos probably have little bit more control of the ball. He can change little bit more the relation.
Ferrer play with intensity, high intensity.
When he's touching his forehand from the place of his backhand, is very difficult to stop him, no? So is important try to play inside and make him feel not comfortable when he's attacking the ball.

Q. Do you feel safer on clay as opposed to hard court with your knees?
RAFAEL NADAL: I am okay, no? I am happy how I'm feeling. You never know what's going on. But right now I must be really happy how I am doing. Thank you.

FastScripts by ASAP Sports

http://www.monte-carlorolexmasters.c...al-Friday.aspx
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:52 AM   #670
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

Thanks for the three interviews Bunny. Juan Carlos provided some answers for me. Rafa anticipates well and is always in the right place at the right time. And he handles the big points well....when he's on. And after all the discussion about how JC has improved his fitness and muscularity, he himself says that he needs to be stronger to play a few more balls in a point. So he was tired intermittently during his match with Rafa and couldn't keep "pushing the forehand".

I liked Tsonga's interview. It's always interesting when a player discusses the differences in opponents and why they use a particular shot for someone. All three interviews had some of that analysis from the players. Too bad it doesn't happen more often.

JC's sense of humor comes out despite his relatively limited grasp of English. He must be quite entertaining in Spanish.
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Old 04-18-2010, 11:06 AM   #671
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

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Originally Posted by *bunny* View Post
Click "New Thread" near the top of the page, give it a thread title and the rest is the same as posting on any thread.
Thanks bunny, someone has already done
thanks for the interview
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Old 04-18-2010, 02:24 PM   #672
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

JCF is a true king of clay anyway.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:23 AM   #673
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

He won more games than anyone else against Rafa. This calls for a celebration.
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:19 PM   #674
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

at least I got to see the best match in MC (on TV, that is) -- R16 Ferrero d Tsonga 61 36 75!!! competitive, a match of contrasting styles and temperaments, and highly entertaining! none of the boring predictable stuff fr the 6-time winner... altho Juanqui did the best vs. him to get as many games as poss, considering that he is old at 30 and some w say, washed up...
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:17 AM   #675
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Default Re: Juan Monte-Carlos Back on Euro Clay

What Juan Carlos, and the Spanish team as a whole did in Monte Carlo was absolutely amazing! Congratulations!
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