[habibko]

Originally Posted by Clydey

He didn't like the term. He was closer to an atheist than a theist. He didn't believe in any sort of supreme being. He is most often described as a deist. I can provide a mountain of quotes in which he rubbishes theism.

Originally Posted by Albert Einstein

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

Originally Posted by Albert Einstein

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

if you want to argue that the top intellectuals are atheists is a credit to atheism, then you should accept that the top intellectual we know of wasn't an atheist therefore taking credit off it.

and as I said, there are many outstanding intellectuals who lived/are living and are also theists or at least not atheists like Einstein, so it doesn't prove anything.

[Sapeod]

Originally Posted by Clydey

I don't think Einstein knew what he was. He said stated that he wasn't an atheist, yet also stated that he doesn't believe in God. He revered nature and nature seemed to be his God.

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

Here are some quotes from him.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

EDIT: Habib has put two of those up already.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by habibko

if you want to argue that the top intellectuals are atheists is a credit to atheism, then you should accept that the top intellectual we know of wasn't an atheist therefore taking credit off it.

and as I said, there are many outstanding intellectuals who lived/are living and are also theists, so it doesn't prove anything.

I didn't say that it proved anything, nor did I intend it to. The point is that atheists believe in evidence and reason. Smarter people value reason above blind faith, generally speaking.

And Einstein was not an atheist, but he was certainly not a theist. He was a deist in a time before evolution was widely accepted and before we knew more about the laws of nature. He had nothing but contempt for the notion of a personal God and referred to people like you as "naive" for clinging to childish superstitions.

He was a man of reason. Don't ever pretend that he believed in God. He made it clear that he didn't. As we've come to know more about the world, the number of top intellectuals who are theists has dwindled. People like Isaac Newton were theists in a time before atheism was intellectually viable. That applies to Einstein, too. Atheism was about as popular as communism before evolution was accepted.

By the way, that third quote is disputed. Nice try, though.

[Clydey]

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.

There you go, Habib. You're a sad liar, mate. Rather than admit that he was neither a theist nor an atheist, you tried to pretend he was a theist.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by DCM

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

Here are some quotes from him.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

EDIT: Habib has put two of those up already.

That 4th quote is disputed. Habib wants people to think that Einstein believed in a personal God.

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Clydey

I didn't say that it proved anything, nor did I intend it to. The point is that atheists believe in evidence and reason. Smarter people value reason above blind faith, generally speaking.

And Einstein was not an atheist, but he was certainly not a theist. He was a deist in a time before evolution was widely accepted and before we knew more about the laws of nature. He had nothing but contempt for the notion of a personal God and referred to people like you as "naive" for clinging to childish superstitions.

He was a man of reason. Don't ever pretend that he believed in God. He made it clear that he didn't. As we've come to know more about the world, the number of top intellectuals who are theists has dwindled. People like Isaac Newton were theists in a time before atheism was intellectually viable. That applies to Einstein, too. Atheism was about as popular as communism before evolution was accepted.

By the way, that third quote is disputed. Nice try, though.

well those who value reason don't always end up being atheists now do they? and there is no clearer example than Einstein himself, the reason is atheism doesn't explain anything really, it brings more questions than solve them.

Einstein might not have believed in a personal God, but he believed in an intelligent design behind this universe, he didn't specify what shape or form this God took (and rightly so, because there is no way we can tell), but he firmly believed that this universe with all its complexity didn't come out of nothing or was just there all the time, that's what true objective intellegent reason will bring you to.

afterwards there are leaps of faith that you can take like Kierkegaard or Habib...

Originally Posted by Clydey

There you go, Habib. You're a sad liar, mate. Rather than admit that he was neither a theist nor an atheist, you tried to pretend he was a theist.

Originally Posted by Clydey

That 4th quote is disputed. Habib wants people to think that Einstein believed in a personal God.

WTF?! where did I pretend he is theist? I was clearly stating that he was not an atheist all the time, where did I say he was a theist, and you call me a liar now? wow.

and how disputed?

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by habibko

well those who value reason don't always end up being atheists now do they? and there is no clearer example than Einstein himself, the reason is atheism doesn't explain anything really, it brings more questions than solve them.

Einstein might not have believed in a personal God, but he believed in an intelligent design behind this universe, he didn't specify what shape or form this God took (and rightly so, because there is no way we can tell), but he firmly believed that this universe with all its complexity didn't come out of nothing or was just there all the time, that's what true objective intellegent reason will bring you to.

afterwards there are leaps of faith that you can take like Kierkegaard or Habib...





WTF?! where did I pretend he is theist? I was clearly stating that he was not an atheist all the time, where did I say he was an theist, and you call me a liar now? wow.

and how disputed?

Atheism isn't intended to explain anything. It's not a philosophy. Get that through your head.

You're impossible to reason with. Sometimes you get mad at people and want to hit them. I'm mad at you, but I don't want to hit you. I want to educate you. I want to sit you down and make you read a book. I want you to stop skimming through wikipedia for your information. I want you to actually know what you're talking about, rather than doing a google search, coming back 5 minutes later and then pretending.

It's pointless debating you. You were indoctrinated and raised from birth to be religious. It's all you know. Nothing will ever sway you. A book of fairytales is all the evidence you need. The most annoying part about this is that I won't be able to say "I told you so" once you realise that there is no God (and I state that with as much certainty as I'm willing to state anything), nor 72 virgins. Maybe there will be a couple of prostitutes instead. I'd settle for that.

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Clydey

Atheism isn't intended to explain anything. It's not a philosophy. Get that through your head.

You're impossible to reason with. Sometimes you get mad at people and want to hit them. I'm mad at you, but I don't want to hit you. I want to educate you. I want to sit you down and make you read a book. I want you to stop skimming through wikipedia for your information. I want you to actually know what you're talking about, rather than doing a google search, coming back 5 minutes later and then pretending.

It's pointless debating you. You were indoctrinated and raised from birth to be religious. It's all you know. Nothing will ever sway you. A book of fairytales is all the evidence you need. The most annoying part about this is that I won't be able to say "I told you so" once you realise that there is no God (and I state that with as much certainty as I'm willing to state anything), nor 72 virgins. Maybe there will be a couple of prostitutes instead. I'd settle for that.

no need to take this personally, it's a discussion in good spirit (from my side at least), I'm not mad at you and I don't think you should be mad either, I also think I'm well educated thank you for your concern, but I don't need you to educate me.

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by habibko

no need to take this personally, it's a discussion in good spirit (from my side at least), I'm not mad at you and I don't think you should be mad either, I also think I'm well educated thank you for your concern, but I don't need you to educate me.

It's not personal, Habib. It's just frustrating. I'm pretty much a veteran when it comes to these religious discussions and I hear the same arguments over and over. When you're not discussing religion, you're a sound guy. When you start talking about religion, though, I just want beat you over the head with a science textbook.

[habibko]

Originally Posted by Clydey

It's not personal, Habib. It's just frustrating. I'm pretty much a veteran when it comes to these religious discussions and I hear the same arguments over and over. When you're not discussing religion, you're a sound guy. When you start talking about religion, though, I just want beat you over the head with a science textbook.

oh well, it's not like I'm thrilled with the fact you are atheist either, I like you better when we at the same RPG games

[Clydey]

Originally Posted by Lena71

By the way check out Max Tegmark ,he's the cutest physicist ,too bad he's a bit nuts,he believes in that 'many worlds theory' by Hugh Everett

If you're referring to the multiverse theory, there's nothing "nuts" about it.

[GlennMirnyi]

Clydey, why do you even bother arguing with a guy that has the IQ of a pelican?

[Sapeod]

Longest argument in the history of MTF??

[JolánGagó]

Originally Posted by Clydey

Atheism is the belief that there is no God.

Exactly. Pure belief based on no scientific evidence.

Originally Posted by GlennMirnyi

Yeah, definitely.



Very rational. Now explain us scientifically why there must be a God. Good luck.

Why would I explain that, Im not a believer

Now you try to scientifically explain why there musn't be a God, or ask Clydey to. Good luck.

[Har-Tru]

Agnosticism is clearly the most "natural" position. Any other thing is based on pure belief.