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Old 08-06-2005, 05:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

I think even BuddyHolly will agree that the second bomb was completely unnecessary and done on rather egotistical power motives.

As for the first bomb, I think it would have been more acceptable using it on a military site rather than an entire city largely populated by women and children. 80,000 of war-starved grandparents, women and cute children died there not military-trained men who had committed themselves to die and fight in war. And the survivors are still dealing with the radiations effects today... The Enola Gay operation had timed the bombing to occur at 8:30am when people were heading to work and walking their children to school. Ppl were vaporised and I remember having seen a picture of a woman's dress completely fused to her skin. [Hiroshima pictures]
These people were human beings for Pete's sake! Some didn't even look human after the event...

I think its worth keeping in mind that war shouldn't only be just about numbers. 80,000 deaths here, 3,000 deaths there, about 5000 somewhere else, etc. War isn't a math equation or a pay-off. If you start thinking like that then youre more of a human "cost-benefit" analytical calculator than a soulful human being capable of understanding that the means don't always justify the end. There were other ways of proving undisputed military might. Like bombing the nearby unoccupied Diaoyutais Islands or something and wiping them completely off the map. Im sure that would have made an impression. There's no excuse for there not having been something like a "warning" bomb -that would have been the honourable thing to do.

---------

When it comes to things like this I often try to think about the firebombing of Dresden. One of the most beautiful,magical cities found in Europe with a rich, cultural history spanning centuries - a real cultural prize- and the allies obliterated it in February 1945 when it was obvious the Nazi's were losing. The allies did it to get back at Hitler for the Blitz even though it wasn't that much of an important military target. And who was Hitler? One then-weak crazy old man who was definitely on his last days and somehow "getting back at him" was worth destroying the cultural beauty of Dresden and its 100,000 citizens to last an absolute forever??? Insanity.

I really consider that a victory for Hitler and the Nazis - they made the allies think that firebombing Dresden was necessary when it actually wasn't. Far from it. It was a gameplay worthy of the Devil himself -tricking ppl to believe destruction on that level and scale was the 'good' and 'right' thing to do when all they were really doing was carrying out Satan's plan to perfection... A lot like Hiroshima. And what was ultimately lost? The collective soul... on both sides. Satan really won that one.

FYI: Im using Satan figuratively, not literally.
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Old 08-06-2005, 07:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

Certainly not a topic I feel comfortable arguing about. I completely agree with the sentiments of Stevens Point's original post, as pointed out by Rosie.
Then I was curious as to why Choupi chose to whisper ''those jerks'' when thinking of Hiroshima and chose to not think of the hundreds of thousands killed in Asia by the Japanese, before Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought those horrors to an end. But she has chosen not tell us.
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Old 08-06-2005, 08:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

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Originally Posted by buddyholly
Then I was curious as to why Choupi chose to whisper ''those jerks'' when thinking of Hiroshima and chose to not think of the hundreds of thousands killed in Asia by the Japanese, before Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought those horrors to an end. But she has chosen not tell us.
You're right, I've chosen not to tell more...it's also a topic with which I do feel uncomfortable to argue. So big thanks to you for driving me into it!
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

I think that it's a sad anniversary !!
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosie
I know that the Japanese catalogue of war crimes were hideous - my Great Uncle was a POW under the Japanese - my friend's Father was a German POW - I have heard their stories and I know which I would have preferred. However, dropping nuclear weapons that killed over 200,000 people (many of them women and innocent childern) was despicable in my opinion and saying it was too liberate Asia seems a little simplistic to me. If the US really wanted to "liberate" anyone they would have entered the War straightaway to help "liberate" the rest of the world from Hitler (including the people in my Mother's country in Belarussia where most of me relatives died), instead of waiting til December 1941 when Pearl Harbour threatened their own cosy existence. War is vile and despicable - people are hurt and get killed - many of them innocent - on an anniversary like today I choose to remember the dead from both sides and all races, religions etc that were killed unnecessarily. I think that is what Stephen's Point meant when he started this thread.
oh please, then why are you against the Iraqi war where many Kurds, shiites were killed. If Germany/Japan did not attack U.S. prior to 1941 why should U.S. attack Europe? Would their population allow them? The Americans did not know about concentration camps. There was no internet access or CNN at that time. This was only known when the camps were liberated.

The Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings were a necessary evil. If this did not happen then Japan would have taken their time to surrender and Soviet Union which had already mobilized their troops near Japan would have occupied Northern part of Japan which would obviously not be given back to the Japanese and we would have 2 Japans today. Japan then (at least the northern part) would not be as conservative and prosperous today.
Also maybe the Russians would have annexed the northern part of Japan as they did with kuril islands. So the nuke bombings prevented the risk of this happening. It also showed the world how dangerous nukes are. If it had not been dropped in Japan it would have happened elsewhere.
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Old 08-14-2005, 11:34 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

The bombing is too much controversial to give a "yes it was wrong" or "no it was right" answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by undomiele
I think even BuddyHolly will agree that the second bomb was completely unnecessary and done on rather egotistical power motives.
Nagasaki did have a couple of military facilities. It was a big sea port and it had factories for production of ships as well.

What made Nagasaki different is that most of the buildings there were old fashioned. They were made from wood, not cement or brick like most other buildings in more modern Japanese cities.

I agree that the bombing on Nagasaki was not a necessary evil. Hiroshima was enough. There was only 3 days between the two, definitely not enough time for Japan to absorb the damage and form a surrender plan. If the Truman government was really concerned about the well-being of civilians, they would at least have waited more than three days before dropping the second bomb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by undomiele
As for the first bomb, I think it would have been more acceptable using it on a military site rather than an entire city largely populated by women and children. 80,000 of war-starved grandparents, women and cute children died there not military-trained men who had committed themselves to die and fight in war. And the survivors are still dealing with the radiations effects today... The Enola Gay operation had timed the bombing to occur at 8:30am when people were heading to work and walking their children to school. Ppl were vaporised and I remember having seen a picture of a woman's dress completely fused to her skin.

These people were human beings for Pete's sake! Some didn't even look human after the event...
Hiroshima was also a large military centre, though certainly not the biggest.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb.
However Hiroshima was a city with a lot of civilians. What infuriates me is when the American military and the government claim that they had dropped the bomb also because of Japan's welfare. I seriously doubt that. The U.S. only had their soldier's lives in mind, not the average Japanese man or woman. I think the power of the bomb could have been demonstrated without being used: the victims were in reality guinea pigs who were used to test the bomb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by undomiele
There's no excuse for there not having been something like a "warning" bomb -that would have been the honourable thing to do.
Exactly.

When people argue that the Japanese government is cruel for not compensating Allied soliders, I am quick to remind them that just as they believe Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 'necessary evil' because it was war and cruel things are expected, then the soldiers have less cause for reparation. The soldiers were fighting and killing. The civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not.
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Old 08-14-2005, 11:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jones
The Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings were a necessary evil. If this did not happen then Japan would have taken their time to surrender and Soviet Union which had already mobilized their troops near Japan would have occupied Northern part of Japan which would obviously not be given back to the Japanese and we would have 2 Japans today. Japan then (at least the northern part) would not be as conservative and prosperous today.
Also maybe the Russians would have annexed the northern part of Japan as they did with kuril islands. So the nuke bombings prevented the risk of this happening.
The Russians declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945. The atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. And Nagasaki was bombed on August 9, 1945.

As you can see, the bomb did not prevent a possible Soviet occupation. It only encouraged them to enter into a fight against an already defeated enemy. The bombing only made it easier for the Soviets to grab some land. And it was the U.S. who agreed to let the Russians grab the Northern Territories.

And it was McArthur and SCAP who had explicitly banned the Russians from having a major role in Japan's reconstruction. Even the British and the Australians - who, like the Soviets, would have been much harsher - were given limited roles and were there for nothing more than show and tell.
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Old 08-15-2005, 11:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

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Originally Posted by Hokit
The Russians declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945. The atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. And Nagasaki was bombed on August 9, 1945.

As you can see, the bomb did not prevent a possible Soviet occupation. It only encouraged them to enter into a fight against an already defeated enemy. The bombing only made it easier for the Soviets to grab some land. And it was the U.S. who agreed to let the Russians grab the Northern Territories.

And it was McArthur and SCAP who had explicitly banned the Russians from having a major role in Japan's reconstruction. Even the British and the Australians - who, like the Soviets, would have been much harsher - were given limited roles and were there for nothing more than show and tell.
The Americans were aware that the Russians had mobilized their troops and would fight the Japanese. They had specifically told the Americans of their intentions ton help the Americans against the Japanese. The Americans did not mind the help as long as they would get out of Japan. But since this did not seem to be the case in Germany, the U.S. probably decided to use the bomb in order to get a headstart over the Soviets and prevent more Americans from being killed.
As for mcCarthur, I have mixed feeling of the guy. Thanks to him Korea is still what it is today, that is divided along the 41st parallel because he wanted to attack China and China entered the war in Korea. However he did a good job in helping draft the constitution in Japan. The country owes mcCarthur for this. So what if the Brits and co. were excluded from helping draft the constitution. what counts is the results and not who participates in the reconstruction of the country. Japan has exceeded expectations as has Germany.
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Old 08-15-2005, 02:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 Year Anniversary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens Point
Today August 6th 2005 marks the 60 Year Anniversary of Atomic Bomb explosion over Hiroshima. Hiroshima and Nagasaki (August 9th) are the first and the last two cities where the nuclear weapon was used as weapon of mass-destuction.

No more nukes. No more wars. Please.

Let us have a peace.

I am off to watch CNN to see this live ceremony from Hiroshima.
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