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View Poll Results: How relevant is it to GOAT discussions

Very relevant. It is even more important than slams 11 7.05%
It is the next metric after slams 104 66.67%
No, it is not relevant at all 32 20.51%
It will only be relevant when Rafa wins it 9 5.77%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-13-2014, 11:58 AM   #1636
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1yer View Post
"Greatest" means the best allround accomplished player with no obvious gaps in the game or player record.

Federer passes on the first criteria but fails on the last 2. Nadal fails on all three at the moment.
It is impossible for such a player to exist, so that definition would render the discussion pointless.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:09 PM   #1637
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Wow, a Roddick match with short rallies and not many returns in play . You've got me this time . Tell me, if Roddick is such a bad player then how on earth did he beat many of the new generation so many times even after he declined? Those videos prove absolutely nothing.

Besides, weren't you scolding someone for bring up Hewitt-DelPo as "just one match"? Do you happen to know the H2H between those two
Lol if you think this is an answer to a fact. Roddick produced a lower quality match competitive wise against a weak opponent to archive the same prized trophy as an opponent that had to work much harder, produce higher quality tennis and defeat a higher quality opponent to receive the same - that is irrefutable. THAT is a fact - that is stronger competition. All your side-stepping by putting words in my mouth about "suggesting" Roddick is a bad player is all smoke and mirrors. You're done in this argument.

I can post more vids comparing matches and it would never end. Majority of the matches post 2008 will generally sport higher quality tennis all around than anything in the early 2000's - fact!!!

2003 Wimbledon Final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOipeDayco
2008 Wimbledon Final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SS4zxbbQ00

Good luck saying anything with a straight face on these two. I can do the same for a lot more. It's a fact, no side-stepping or spin can change it.

What else are you going to deny?

Your claims of no response to "my miss-understandings" is a cop out. I know you have no response because there is none.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:12 PM   #1638
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Roddick player a lower quality match competitive wise
Roddick played a good match in 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V69qOkWS2ZU
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:15 PM   #1639
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
"Occasionally" able to mix it in with the top guys in this era?
There's maybe two players ever who were better at an older age who played their careers in the open era - Connors and Agassi. Fed's had a better career trajectory than Lendl, in all but weeks played in the top 10.

Say what you will, it's significant that Federer's still playing and still playing well at this point. Sure, he's no Connors, but then not many are.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:17 PM   #1640
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
2003 Wimbledon Final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOipeDayco
2008 Wimbledon Final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SS4zxbbQ00

Good luck saying anything with a straight face on these two. I can do the same for a lot more. It's a fact, no side-stepping or spin can change it.
How can you even begin to compare a serve and volley match with a baseline match? It's impossible.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:26 PM   #1641
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBakTehGrass View Post
How can you even begin to compare a serve and volley match with a baseline match? It's impossible.
You think the 08 match wasn't possible in 03? Or that the opponent in Nadal would absolutely nullify that kind of play. Not only that, Federer improved vastly from 03 to 08. No need for him to serve and volley to destroy an opponent - not that he needed it in this match. That match isn't even necessarily serve and volley - but a characterization of the lack of quality ROS, and quality baseline ground game by both players. In this case the loser an extremely bad example. Even then this not your stereotypical serve and volley match. Go to the 90's for that. You gotta laugh at those rallies for sure. The highlights of the match.

Federer killed Serve and Volley. And people say Nadal and the slowing of courts did. Just watch the match...Federer was always the superior baseline player against the likes Roddick and his peers. Until Nadal stepped up to the plate in a big way. Djokovic, Murray - the list goes on.

Another spin.

First point of the match is Fed coming to the net and getting burned. Likewise destroying his opponent in the same fashion throughout the match for the entirety of it. Serve and volley didn't dictate the result of this game. The opponent had a bigger serve, serve and volley game. Federer's baseline ground game was simply superior. Passing shots galore left and right....now that sounds like something I saw at AO 2014 Semi's - failing miserably.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:32 PM   #1642
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Default Re: Question for those who put emphasis on H2Hs in determining a player's greatness..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
That's the problems with IF's. IF Nadal was better on indoor HC's. You see its just a game. You have to deal with the facts accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
Big claim, no back up as to why. You can ignore it if it bothers you. The sun exist, it's a fact that it does. I don't own or have that fact when I say the sun exist because of x and x. Go outside - take the shine. The claim that I own the facts such that in some way it's manufactured opinion is the point here. It's amateurish bait into confirmation. Now you can stop generalizing in one big swoop of nothing for just that.
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Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
Since these threads usually revolve around the Nadal "aura". Nadal is the H2H King, against Fed, and those not named Fed. In b4 Davydenko - and that is an undeniable fact that adds to Nadal's greatness - some call it solving puzzles.
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Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
Did I have the facts? Or did I illustrate the facts with my arguments. The facts exist without me. There is a big difference. You're still in opinion candyland where everything is one big opinion. Yes I do not have the facts. I just illustrate them, I can't have them. Hey wanna trade these facts? ridiculous.

Taking indirect digs at me is all I responded to - accordingly. Searching out for your opinion I could care less. Just one of millions. If it's similar to Kyle's, already debunked. Opinions are not facts. Getting tired of repeating this really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
Arguments? Two post above are more than what he or, you (apparently) so far can provide. Argue against facts - yeah good luck. You can't argue against facts - no avail. Since you, "apparently" believe in the same line of thinking as to suggest Kyle's reasoning is the goal then I am afraid you too are lost. He got worked up pretty well - comfort yes. A pat in the back too for his effort in defending Federer's value of accomplishments in the early 00's. I think everyone in this forum agrees 17 is 17 and not 15.5. Just hilarious really.

No one is going to change facts. Thus my convictions are clear and free. Unless converting me into a fed turd is the goal - inserting some insane bias: Protecting Fed's accomplishments lmao....
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Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
If you ignore everything in this thread sure you can make that call. I disagree and cite what I have posted here as evidence - irrefutable facts and logic. No popularity contest, just facts. I have exposed your argument and OP's argument not only as a silly misconception on this forum but a total farse of fanboyism.

That route is full of bias and cherry picking. And long and behold, more spin to the unspinable. You can however deal with facts. After all, they are an impenetrable wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
Lol if you think this is an answer to a fact. Roddick produced a lower quality match competitive wise against a weak opponent to archive the same prized trophy as an opponent that had to work much harder, produce higher quality tennis and defeat a higher quality opponent to receive the same - that is irrefutable. THAT is a fact - that is stronger competition. All your side-stepping by putting words in my mouth about "suggesting" Roddick is a bad player is all smoke and mirrors. You're done in this argument.

I can post more vids comparing matches and it would never end. Majority of the matches post 2008 will generally sport higher quality tennis all around than anything in the early 2000's - fact!!!
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:34 PM   #1643
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Default Re: Question for those who put emphasis on H2Hs in determining a player's greatness..

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Originally Posted by BringBakTehGrass View Post
Are you reduced to memes. After all, your theories have been debunked here. What else, a dancing pony?
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:42 PM   #1644
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisSavior View Post
You think the 08 match wasn't possible in 03? Or that the opponent in Nadal would absolutely nullify that kind of play. Not only that, Federer improved vastly from 03 to 08. No need for him to serve and volley to destroy an opponent - not that he needed it in this match. That match isn't even necessarily serve and volley - but a characterization of the lack of quality ROS, and quality baseline ground game by both players. In this case the loser an extremely bad example. Even then this not your stereotypical serve and volley match. Go to the 90's for that. You gotta laugh at those rallies for sure. The highlights of the match.

Federer killed Serve and Volley. And people say Nadal and the slowing of courts did. Just watch the match...Federer was always the superior baseline player against the likes Roddick and his peers. Until Nadal stepped up to the plate in a big way. Djokovic, Murray - the list goes on.

Another spin.

First point of the match is Fed coming to the net and getting burned. Likewise destroying his opponent in the same fashion throughout the match.
federer killed serve and volley???

my god , if somebody killed serve and volley was hewitt , not federer.

and if federer killed that , nadal killed the tennis
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:43 PM   #1645
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

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Originally Posted by juan27 View Post
federer killed serve and volley???

my god , if somebody killed serve and volley was hewitt , not federer.

and if federer killed that , nadal killed the tennis
The question is not if Federer killed a Goat, then Nadal killed Jesus?

And that is my opinion obviously - not a fact. Federer did became a standard bearer for baseline tennis - killing all the clowns that relied on big serves and coming to the net.

A lot of mad Feds fans. Very mad. You can't expect less from a crazy fanbase whose worship to a man knows no end. I had enough clowns for breakfast, lunch and dinner today.

Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:45 PM   #1646
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle_Johansen View Post
What facts? What truth? The facts suggest that Federer is the most successful player in history. People can claim he had it easy between 2004 and 2007, just as I could claim that the depth the last 5 years has been bad past the big 4 of Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, and Murray. It's an opinion. But the idea that Federer would have struggled if he was 5 years older and in his prime with Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray isn't exactly well thought out, considering he is still beating Djokovic and Murray at age 32 and was #1 when all three were in their prime years.

And again, please tell me how it's "garbage" to suggest that Nadal was better on hardcourt from 2005-2008 than a lot of people think? I'm not pulling it out of my ass with no evidence.
fact.

THE ONLY FACTS ARE THE TITLES AND RECORDS , AND FEDERER IS GOAT THERE.

WEAK ERA , STRONG ERA ,ETC.... ARE ALL SUBJECTIVE THINGS
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:45 PM   #1647
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBakTehGrass View Post
It is impossible for such a player to exist, so that definition would render the discussion pointless.
Let me make myself clearer.

if Federer (now that it seems he is back his own self again ) beats Nadal for the next 4 times they meet on whichever surface. I will take him as GOAT.

That would show that he can change his game and would go a long way in fillipn g the gap in his player record as well as eliminate the obvious weakness in his game.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:52 PM   #1648
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Default Re: Question for those who put emphasis on H2Hs in determining a player's greatness..

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Are you reduced to memes. After all, your theories have been debunked here. What else, a dancing pony?
No, you have attempted to "debunk" the posts of people you disagree with through the use of ad hominem, proof by assertion, and argumentum ad nauseam. These attempts have been wholly unsuccessful.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:56 PM   #1649
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Default Re: ~~ GOAT discussions ~~ Vol. 2

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Let me make myself clearer.

if Federer (now that it seems he is back his own self again ) beats Nadal for the next 4 times they meet on whichever surface. I will take him as GOAT.

That would show that he can change his game and would go a long way in fillipn g the gap in his player record as well as eliminate the obvious weakness in his game.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:57 PM   #1650
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Default Re: Question for those who put emphasis on H2Hs in determining a player's greatness..

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No, you have attempted to "debunk" the posts of people you disagree with through the use of ad hominem, proof by assertion, and argumentum ad nauseam. These attempts have been wholly unsuccessful.
People believe what they want to believe?

Doesn't change the reality that the topic of your discussion which got merged here got destroyed. Like anyone here has debunked anything that I have elaborated upon. Absolutely nothing. A lot of side-stepping and smoke and mirrors to cling to an agenda. It's all this forum is about and I am definitely not changing that.
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