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Old 07-24-2013, 03:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

I've long thought that the ATP and WTA player councils should band together so that there can be upwards of 60 players in each game, and all with their unique motions and apparel. Of course, it will never happen, and the most realistic game in terms of large roster and every tournament is Tennis Elbow.

I wish they would make a Smash Court Tennis 4 (or x year). SCT2 was excellent, and they had all the motions spot on. I get that the engine used in TS4 didn't allow for individual animation (that's the only reason they have for being so lazy) but it feels the same playing with all the players except for Nadal.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
Do you sell this game or what? It's alright, but nowhere near as good as you make it out to be
Yes, it is. Like I said, the notion of bothering to play TS again is laughable. TE is light years ahead in every way, barring graphics. TS4 was the best effort at a simulation tennis game on a console, and it still fell flat. Winning sets 6-0 all the way to the semis/finals, where the difficulty suddenly jumped up by a ridiculous amount, and you lost handily... that was so much fun.. it was stupidly imbalanced and the gameplay was poor as well. It was so tedious remembering to change difficulty every time you reached the semi, and it still didn't balance out on the whole, due to the limited options. The calendar was a load of crap as well. TE is SO far ahead, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. It's like PES/FIFA, circa 2003 - the former being so much better that you could scarcely compare them.

Smash Court Tennis 2 was the console game that was the most fun for me. But again, the difficulty was an issue, only on a bad day against Hewitt would you ever lose.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
Do you sell this game or what? It's alright, but nowhere near as good as you make it out to be
It's only natural to want to spread word of mouth about a good game that doesn't have much visibility thanks to it's limited marketing and distribution. You see the same thing from fans of microbrews and independent films.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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Originally Posted by Murray Mint View Post
Yes, it is. Like I said, the notion of bothering to play TS again is laughable. TE is light years ahead in every way, barring graphics. TS4 was the best effort at a simulation tennis game on a console, and it still fell flat. Winning sets 6-0 all the way to the semis/finals, where the difficulty suddenly jumped up by a ridiculous amount, and you lost handily... that was so much fun.. it was stupidly imbalanced and the gameplay was poor as well. It was so tedious remembering to change difficulty every time you reached the semi, and it still didn't balance out on the whole, due to the limited options. The calendar was a load of crap as well. TE is SO far ahead, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. It's like PES/FIFA, circa 2003 - the former being so much better that you could scarcely compare them.

Smash Court Tennis 2 was the console game that was the most fun for me. But again, the difficulty was an issue, only on a bad day against Hewitt would you ever lose.
You struggled in SF and F ? Beating the CPU is piss easy, just hit short crosscourt angles all the time and even if you're Bouchard against Agassi you'll win easily on the most difficult level. The fun of TS4 is playing online, I've had some great times owning (and getting owned too) fellow MTFers online Playing the CPU is pointless in any game after you become good because they always do the same thing.

Smash Court Tennis is my favorite tennis game too though, the mission-driven career mode is the most satisfying I've ever come accross.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

While that's true of some games, I find that playing people online is altogether more frustrating. From the point a game is released, there's a progression: glitches are found by sad bastards that play 24/7, they are exploited, and then the practice is perpetuated - taking most, if not all of the fun out of playing. I don't even have an Xbox Gold Account, I miss the good old days of Mario Kart/Goldeneye 4 player on N64.

It's hard to believe that it was even possible to win GS SF/Finals on the highest difficulty! Was bloody difficult on Hard, and I think there was a level higher than that. No doubt there's a way to exploit the CPU player as you say, but who wants to play like that? Point is, it was so imbalanced that it became a tedious exercise winning the rounds leading up to the SF. Because there was no way, just no way in hell you would lose. And Masters events... you just won every single match with ease.. Whereas on TE I've suffered a couple of massive GS upsets to the likes of Benneteau & Bellucci in beast mode. It's rare, but it can happen, which is just right.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
You struggled in SF and F ? Beating the CPU is piss easy, just hit short crosscourt angles all the time and even if you're Bouchard against Agassi you'll win easily on the most difficult level. The fun of TS4 is playing online, I've had some great times owning (and getting owned too) fellow MTFers online Playing the CPU is pointless in any game after you become good because they always do the same thing.

Smash Court Tennis is my favorite tennis game too though, the mission-driven career mode is the most satisfying I've ever come accross.
The point is they compensate for lazy programming by boosting CPU abilities massively for SF and F in majors. You can sleepwalk through early rounds against most opponents, and then suddenly the late rounds will actually have an opponent who gets to the ball and can hit winners (it doesn't matter who the opponent is either; Nadal for example will be quite straightforward early in a tournament but something of an effort if you meet him in a late round).

You can still beat most opponents easily in the late rounds thanks to the very straightforward patterns they're vulnerable to, but those patterns take a LONG time of perfect execution to pay off against pushers at the 'very hard' and 'expert' levels (Murray, Simon and the Colombian generic come to mind). Dreading facing Murray (including on clay ) or Simon in an event while hoping for Federer and not minding Nadal or Djokovic tells you there's something seriously wrong with a game's mechanics. And that the programmers ramp up the difficulty late in tournaments tells you that THEY know they've fucked up too. Players should get more difficult to beat as you progress in a tournament, and that wouldn't be the case against most opponents (besides Murray) if they didn't have the AI cheat.

Frankly I'm surprised you'd defend the game considering how strong it makes pushers compared to players with a more attacking style; the game's big hitting baseliners are laughably easy to neutralize when playing with a defender. I'm sure Ferrer would love it if real life tennis played like Top Spin 4.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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While that's true of some games, I find that playing people online is altogether more frustrating. From the point a game is released, there's a progression: glitches are found by sad bastards that play 24/7, they are exploited, and then the practice is perpetuated - taking most, if not all of the fun out of playing. I don't even have an Xbox Gold Account, I miss the good old days of Mario Kart/Goldeneye 4 player on N64.

It's hard to believe that it was even possible to win GS SF/Finals on the highest difficulty! Was bloody difficult on Hard, and I think there was a level higher than that. No doubt there's a way to exploit the CPU player as you say, but who wants to play like that? Point is, it was so imbalanced that it became a tedious exercise winning the rounds leading up to the SF. Because there was no way, just no way in hell you would lose. And Masters events... you just won every single match with ease.. Whereas on TE I've suffered a couple of massive GS upsets to the likes of Benneteau & Bellucci in beast mode. It's rare, but it can happen, which is just right.
There are some people who abuse online play and ruin it for a lot of people yeah, but if you have a group of trustworthy people to play with, it's the best mode for sure. I can safely say that playing other MTFers online regularly on TS4 is the best tennis video game experience I've ever had. Before that, I usually played random people online and it could get quite frustrating for sure, but if you have people to play with it's great. For me at least, playing people is way more interesting than playing the CPU: like in every game, once you reach a certain level beating the CPU becomes piss easy because their patterns are always the same. Just wait until you improve some more on TE, you'll stop being upset by Benneteau and Bellucci. I remember on Smash Court Tennis when I initially lost to Hewitt and Safin at Slams, then after a while I barely lost a point to them. Offline mode is basically only fun until you become good enough to own it completely, then there's nothing left to do.

Unless the CPU can 'evolve' or have some sort of intelligence, every game will face that issue, TS4's greatest strength is its online mode, it's highly enjoyable.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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Originally Posted by Htom Sirveaux View Post
The point is they compensate for lazy programming by boosting CPU abilities abilities massively for SF and F in majors. You can sleepwalk through early rounds against most opponents, and then suddenly the late rounds will actually have an opponent who gets to the ball and can hit winners (it doesn't matter who the opponent is either; Nadal for example will be quite straightforward early in a tournament but something of an effort if you meet him in a late round).

You can still beat most opponents easily in the late rounds thanks to the very straightforward patterns they're vulnerable to, but those patterns take a LONG time of perfect execution to pay off against pushers at the 'very hard' and 'expert' levels (Murray, Simon and the Colombian generic come to mind). Dreading facing Murray (including on clay ) or Simon in an event while hoping for Federer and not minding Nadal or Djokovic tells you there's something seriously wrong with a game's mechanics. And that the programmers ramp up the difficulty late in tournaments tells you that THEY know they've fucked up too. Players should get more difficult to beat as you progress in a tournament, and that wouldn't be the case against most opponents (besides Murray) if they didn't have the AI cheat.

Frankly I'm surprised you'd defend the game considering how strong it makes pushers compared to players with a more attacking style; the game's big hitting baseliners are laughably easy to neutralize when playing with a defender. I'm sure Ferrer would love it if real life tennis played like Top Spin 4.
Don't get me wrong, TS4 is a highly flawed game and the offline mode is not very interesting to me. Stats are messed up, animations are meh too. I can overlook it though because of how strong the online mode is, for me sports games are fun to play against people not the CPU anyway, I only care about the CPU to become good enough to master it and then I barely play offline again.

And the patterns are easy actually, just use angle/control shots in every rally shot, crosscourt every time and the match is yours. It really doesn't take that long to perfect at all and it always works; it also solves the pusher bias, angles are the best way to defeat pushers even online.

The game does play very slow and mostly favors defensive players, I agree, but there's ways around that. A lot of people underuse angle shots, they are the best shots on TS4 and should be used 90% of the time, they are safer and much more effective at opening up the court and give you better placement as well.

But yes, if you play offline all the time I can understand you'd be unhappy; stats and animations are mostly meh, career mode absolutely sucks, etc... TS4 is only worth it for the online experience, would have binned it long ago otherwise.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
And the patterns are easy actually, just use angle/control shots in every rally shot, crosscourt every time and the match is yours. It really doesn't take that long to perfect at all and it always works; it also solves the pusher bias, angles are the best way to defeat pushers even online.

The game does play very slow and mostly favors defensive players, I agree, but there's ways around that. A lot of people underuse angle shots, they are the best shots on TS4 and should be used 90% of the time, they are safer and much more effective at opening up the court and give you better placement as well.
I got through Hard difficulty playing without control shots (and without the 'run' button, the importance of which is poorly explained by the designers) and suddenly found a few players (ie, Murray) unplayable on Very Hard and Expert with the style I had been using. That's when I started trying new approaches and figured out how effective the control and run techniques are. The problem is that that combo is crazy overpowered against most opponents but still only just good enough against someone like Murray, so the game became basically nothing but routs with the occasional cheap final against Murray to drive me crazy. I was able to eventually get good enough with this approach to beat everything, including Murray, on Expert but I was really just executing a very long and repetitive pattern over and over again with little actual tennis knowledge or skill required.

And I'll take your word that the game is fun online and I did face someone who played very attractive tennis with Agassi, but I gave up on online play after some asshole put Serena absurdly wide and cheap-aced me to death.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:33 PM   #25
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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I got through Hard difficulty playing without control shots (and without the 'run' button, the importance of which is poorly explained by the designers) and suddenly found a few players (ie, Murray) unplayable on Very Hard and Expert with the style I had been using. That's when I started trying new approaches and figured out how effective the control and run techniques are. The problem is that that combo is crazy overpowered against most opponents but still only just good enough against someone like Murray, so the game became basically nothing but routs with the occasional cheap final against Murray to drive me crazy. I was able to eventually get good enough with this approach to beat everything, including Murray, on Expert but I was really just executing a very long and repetitive pattern over and over again with little actual tennis knowledge or skill required.

And I'll take your word that the game is fun online and I did face someone who played very attractive tennis with Agassi, but I gave up on online play after some asshole put Serena absurdly wide and cheap-aced me to death.
I understand your point, but that's the case in every game anyway. The CPU isn't intelligent and doesn't evolve, once you find a successful pattern and can execute it perfectly you'll just win all the time. That's just how AI works as of now, I'm afraid.

As for online mode, some clowns ruin it, yes, it's best if you have reliable/trustworthy people to play with, as opposed to facing random people, who will often have found loopholes to exploit. If you ever have any interest in joining MTF's gaming group on FB just PM me, for TS4 online matches or other games of course. We're a pretty fair bunch, which makes online play more fun of course. Did you play TS4 for PS3 or Xbox btw?
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

What we need is a game with -

Grand Slam Tennis 2's graphics + Tennis elbows customisation ability and player likeness in terms of strokes etc.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

Wy can't they buy a -FIFA- type licence and have every player in it,

And then include different versions of players, federer 2006 nadal 2008 djokovic 2011
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

Hope there is. TS4 has a few fixable flaws that would make it an amazing tennis game.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

Sadly as others have mentioned, Tennis is not something people go out of their way to play or watch.

Unlike Soccer, Football, Basketball; which all have millions of fans tuning in every day.

In the end it is about $$$$. So why would 2k spend the time and money on TS5, when they could make NBA2KXX, Borderlands 3, etc; which would bring in double the money?
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Top Spin 4 yet to sell 1 million copies WW, will we see Top Spin 5?

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
I understand your point, but that's the case in every game anyway. The CPU isn't intelligent and doesn't evolve, once you find a successful pattern and can execute it perfectly you'll just win all the time. That's just how AI works as of now, I'm afraid.

As for online mode, some clowns ruin it, yes, it's best if you have reliable/trustworthy people to play with, as opposed to facing random people, who will often have found loopholes to exploit. If you ever have any interest in joining MTF's gaming group on FB just PM me, for TS4 online matches or other games of course. We're a pretty fair bunch, which makes online play more fun of course. Did you play TS4 for PS3 or Xbox btw?
Thanks for the invite. If I go back to Top Spin 4 at some point, I'll be sure to take you up on the offer.

And I played it on a PS3.
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