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Old 06-26-2013, 12:06 PM   #196
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
How can you hurt something that can't feel anything?
But weren't you arguing earlier that animals have the right to live and pursue their own interests, without the threat of death by humans. The cruelty part was not considered then, just that they have the right to their own lives.
So don't plants have the right to die a natural death? They are living things. Does the fact that they do not feel pain give us the right to kill them?
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:09 AM   #197
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
But weren't you arguing earlier that animals have the right to live and pursue their own interests, without the threat of death by humans. The cruelty part was not considered then, just that they have the right to their own lives.
So don't plants have the right to die a natural death? They are living things. Does the fact that they do not feel pain give us the right to kill them?
That is very far from being what I have argued. I stated since my first post that my position is a consequentialist one, and that I view morality as only making true sense when it is based on the maximisation of well-being and happiness as opposed to pain and suffering. Cruelty is indeed the central part that I consider, hence my emphasis on factory farming. The right to life is, in my view, actually secondary to the way animals live their lives. That is why I argued earlier in the thread that swiftly shooting down a wild animal to eat its flesh is not something I have that much of a problem with. It is the prolongued suffering animals in factory farms are subjected to that I strongly oppose.

I constantly clash with fellow vegetarians on this, especially with vegans. Many of them disagree with my views, as they claim animals have an intrinsic value. I don't think anything has an instrinsic value. Whatever has value must have value for a reason.

It was MichaelKrep who mentioned rights, and I replied to him that, to me, rights cannot be simply summarily conferred. Whatever has a right must have that right for a reason. Whatever has a right to well-being and the pursuit of happiness, and therefore a right to avoid pain and suffering, must be able to experience happiness and pain to begin with.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:31 AM   #198
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
It was MichaelKrep who mentioned rights, and I replied to him that, to me, rights cannot be simply summarily conferred. Whatever has a right must have that right for a reason. Whatever has a right to well-being and the pursuit of happiness, and therefore a right to avoid pain and suffering, must be able to experience happiness and pain to begin with.
How do you quantify well-being?
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:34 PM   #199
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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How do you quantify well-being?
It might be challenging to place completely objective, clear-cut boundaries when it comes to quantifying well-being. But that does not mean well-being is not quantifiable. We all realise **** and murder tend to decrease well-being in societies where love and compassion increase it. A serious, painful illness decreases well-being where a healthy state increases it.

Health itself can be used as a comparison: there are no clear boundaries when talking about health, and bitter discussions have always existed when it comes to determining what constitutes an increase in health and what doesn't. Yet that doesn't prevent us from using words like "healthier" and "less healthy".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:53 PM   #200
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

I'm here to pledge that for each animal you don't eat, I will eat three.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #201
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
It might be challenging to place completely objective, clear-cut boundaries when it comes to quantifying well-being. But that does not mean well-being is not quantifiable. We all realise **** and murder tend to decrease well-being in societies where love and compassion increase it. A serious, painful illness decreases well-being where a healthy state increases it.

Health itself can be used as a comparison: there are no clear boundaries when talking about health, and bitter discussions have always existed when it comes to determining what constitutes an increase in health and what doesn't. Yet that doesn't prevent us from using words like "healthier" and "less healthy".
I'm not talking about measuring the effect different things have on the same individual (to take your health example, comparing medical treatment A with medical treatment B). I'm talking about comparing the well-being of one individual with that of another. The short answer is: you can't measure it, except in the most clear-cut cases.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #202
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

I just remembered I never got around to answering this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKrep View Post
I'm not talking about measuring the effect different things have on the same individual (to take your health example, comparing medical treatment A with medical treatment B).
I wasn't talking about that either.

Quote:
I'm talking about comparing the well-being of one individual with that of another. The short answer is: you can't measure it, except in the most clear-cut cases.
That is a contradiction. If you can measure it in the most clear-cut cases, you can measure it.

Again, the same could be said about health. What is health? How can you measure it? How much overweight must a person be to be considered "not healthy"? What are the boundaries of mental health? Are psycopaths "sick"? Which treatments are legitimate when it comes to improving health, and which aren't? The answers to all these questions and many more are controversial. And yet we do not doubt that there is such thing as health, and that there are healthy states and less healthy states.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:40 PM   #203
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

I'm fine with vegetarians. In fact, I know a few.

What I'm not okay with is vegetarians who shove their morals and beliefs down meat-eaters' throats, attack people who eat meat and other idiotic things like saying eating meat is evil etc.

In other words, I have a massive problem with PETA and other such activist groups who are mostly just terrorists. Normal every day people who are vegetarians are fine.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #204
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

I don't eat meat because I think it's disgusting. My fiance eats plenty of meat for the both of us. We may tease each other but at the end of the day he doesn't care what I eat and I don't care what he eats. It just means we rarely cook for each other or when we do we only share side dishes.

The irony of it is that some (certainly not all) meat eaters are proclaiming exasperation at vegetarians acting morally superior and trying to force their views on carnivores, then, in the same breath, yammering on about why vegetarians SHOULD eat meat. As a vegetarian, I find preachy vegetarians and vegans to be incredibly annoying. But I also find preachy carnivores to be incredibly annoying.

I'm going on a hunting trip later this summer with some friends. I just want to get some quality time in with nature. I am sure we'll all co-exist peacefully.

People eat what they want to eat. Want pork? Have pork. Want tofu? Have tofu.
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Old 07-16-2013, 12:48 AM   #205
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Default Re: 3 year old explains why he doesn't want to eat meat

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i don't think you know many vegans

one of my best friends is a vegan and he's a great and intelligent person. we get along great and the fact that i eat all types of meat has never been an issue. don't be so intolerant.
A vegan and intelligent is an oxymoron
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