Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #21 of all time) - Page 95 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: How accurate was I?

5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 63 18.10%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 146 41.95%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 50 14.37%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.46%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 70 20.11%
Voters: 348. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-13-2013, 12:37 AM   #1411
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

AGAIN, there is no ONE GOAT. However, if you are including Pro Slams, you cannot rank Sampras or Gonzalez over Rosewall when neither of them ever won a clay court slam. Federer won 1 clay slam only because he did not have to beat Rafa to do so. Gonzalez dominated the pro tour before Rosewall reached his peak and Laver joined the tour. The 60's were the great years of the pro tour with Rosewall winning 14 of his 15 slams and Laver winning all of his pro slams. The players Gonzales was dominating in the 50's were not the same high quality as Rosewall, Laver and Hoad. The same is true of Federer from 03-08. Even without his Amateur slams, Rosewall has 19 compared to 17 for Roger. IMO, the only player who could be ranked above Rosewall is Laver, and even that is questionable. Whether Laver or Rosewall could beat Roger or Rafa, were they playing today, is not the point. Players accomplishments can only be jugded by how they did against their competition in the era they played in.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:20 AM   #1412
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

Update 12 junio.

Si no sabe castellano aprenda!

1.Roger Federer (SUI):_(17GS (record), 6MC (record), 21 MS (2°), 76 titulos, N°1: 2004-2007 y 2009, 7 Wimbledon (empatado con Renshaw y Sampras ), 237 semanas consecutivas como N°1 (record), record indiscutido de 302 semanas como número 1 del mundo, Ganador GS carrera 2009, 5 Wimbledon consecutivos (2003-2007), 5 US Open consecutivos (2004-2008), 10 finales consecutivas de GS (record), 23 semifinales consecutivas de GS (record), record vigente de 35 cuartos de final consecutivos en GS, 41 victorias consecutivas en Wimbledon (empatado con Borg); 40 victorias consecutivas en US Open (record); unico jugador en llegar por lo menos a 5 finales en todos los Grand Slam; 4° jugador con mas titulos ATP (76), jugador con mas victorias en Grand Slam, Masters Cup y Masters Series, maximo rival: Nadal)

2.Rod Laver (AUS):_ (11GS, 8PS, N°1: 1965-1969, 200 titulos, 54 titulos amateur, 69 titulos profesionales, 77 titulos era open, participó en el Tour Profesional pre open en el periodo (1963-1967); fue co-numero 1 en 1964 y 1970, Ganador GS amateur 1962, Ganador del Pro Slam en 1967 y único ganador GS era open 1969, 30 de 34 finales de majors entre 1960 y 1969, maximo rival: Rosewall)

3.Pancho Gonzales (USA):_ (2GS,15PS, 7MS, N°1:1954-1959, 113 titulos, participó en el Tour Profesional pre open en el periodo (1950-1967) co-numero 1 en 1952 y 1960, 17 titulos amateur, 85 titulos profesionales, 11 titulos era open, record de 8 US Pro (empatado con Rosewall como jugador con mayor cantidad de un mismo Majors); 7 US Pro consecutivos (1953-1959), record de 6 años como #1 del mundo indiscutido, record de 8 años consecutivos como #1 (2 años como co-#1), jugador con mas finales de un mismo majors (12 finales de US Pro) jugador mas veterano en ganar un titulo ATP (43 años), reconocido unanimemente como el mejor tenista de la era profesional pre-open, máximo rival: no hay uno en particular a lo largo de su carrera jugo contra: Laver, Rosewall, Kramer, Budge, Segura, Hoad, Trabert, Sedgman).

4.Pete Sampras (USA):_(14GS,5MC,11MS, 64 titulos, N°1: 1993-1998, 14 Grand Slam, 7 Wimbledon, 4 Wimbledon consecutivos(1997-2000), 286 semanas totales como #1 (2° detrás de federer), mejor % de victorias en finales de GS era open (77,7%; 14/18) empatado con Gonzales en años indiscutido como numero 1 del mundo (6), unico jugador en finalizar 6 años consecutivos como numero 1 del mundo en la Era Open; unico jugador en ganar 7 de 7 en Wimbledon, unico jugador en ganar 8 GS seguidos en 8 finales seguidas disputadas (1995-2000), unico en disputar por lo menos 7 finales en 2 de los 4 GS (WB y USO), maximo rival: Agassi)

5.Ken Rosewall (AUS):_(8GS,15PS,5MS, N°1: 1961-1963, 133 titulos, participó en el Tour Profesional pre open en el periodo (1957-1967) co-numero 1 en 1960,1964 y 1970, jugador con mas Majors de la historia (23), 26 titulos amateur, 63 titulos profesionales, 44 titulos era open, Ganador del Pro Slam en 1963, 26 años como top20, 20 como top10, 12 años como top3, 7 French Pro consecutivos (1960-1966), record de 8 French Pro (empatado con Gonzales como jugador con mayor cantidad de un mismo Majors); 6 majors en clay, 8 majors en cesped, 9 majors e indoors, record: mayor diferencia de años entre su primer y último GS (19 años), 2 WCT Finals (ex-Masters Cup), jugador mas joven en ganar el Australian Open (18 años), unico jugador en ganar torneos de Grand Slam en 3 decadas diferentes, jugador mas veterano en ganar un GS (37 años), maximo rival: Laver)

6.Rafael Nadal (ESP):_ (12GS,0MC,24MS (record absoluto),1JJOO 2008, 3 CD, 57 titulos, N°1: 2008 y 2010, 8 Roland Garros (record), 2 veces ganador de 4 RG consecutivos (2005-2008 y 2010-2013), Ganador GS de carrera mas joven era open (2010), unico jugador en la historia en ganar 8 veces un mismo GS, record: ganador de 3 GS consecutivos en 3 superficies distintas (2010), máximo ganador de torneos Master 1000, 81 victorias consecutivas en arcilla mejor record masculino era open en una superficie, 8 MS Montecarlo, unico jugador en ganar durante 9 años consecutivos por lo menos un GS, mejor % de victorias ATP: 626-124 (83,46%), 2° mejor % e victorias en GS 164-22 (88,17%), 102 semanas como n°1, record positivo ante todos los top 10 actuales, 59-1 en RG (mejor % de algun jugador en cualquier GS), 3° mejor porcentaje de victorias al disputar el quinto set, 6-2 en finales de GS vs su máximo rival: Roger Federer)

7.Bill Tilden (USA):_ (10GS, 4PS, 1HCCC, 16MS, N°1: 1920-1921,1923-1925, 1931, co-numero 1 en 1922, 130 titulos, 15 titulos amateur, 15 titulos profesionales, 6 US Open consecutivos (1920-1925), 7 Copa Davis, record de 95 victorias consecutivas, 8 GS consecutivos (6 USO + 2WB), mejor % de victorias de toda la historia 900-63 (93,6%), 42 victorias consecutivas en US OPEN (record en cualquier GS), 51 victorias consecutivas en torneos de GS no consecutivos (record), reconocido indiscutidamente como el mejor tenista de la primera mitad del siglo XX; maximo rival: Johnston, y en profesionales: Cochet, Lacoste, Budge, Vines, Nusslein, Perry).

8.Björn Borg (SUE):_ (11GS,2MC,15MS, 1CD, 63 titulos, N°1: 1978-1980, co-numero 1 en 1977, 5 Wimbledon consecutivos (1976-1980), 3 (RG+ WB) consecutivos 1978-1980, 2° mejor % victorias era open (82,7%) mejor % de victorias en torneos GS: 141-17 (89,2%); mejor % de victorias en Wimbledon 51-4 (92,72%); % mas alto de GS ganados (11/27), 40,7%; 41 victorias consecutivas en Wimbledon (empatado con Federer); mejor % de games ganados en GS (3066-1973): 60,8%; unico jugador en ganar 3 GS sin perder sets (2RG+WB), 33 victorias consecutivas en Copa Davis (record) 3° mejor % de victorias al llegar a un quinto set, mejor % de victorias sobre top-10 (70,5%, 67-28), maximo rival: McEnroe)

9.Don Budge (USA):_(6GS, 4PS, 6MS, N°1: 1938-1940, 1942, (co-numero 1 en 1937), primer Ganador en ganar el Grand Slam en 1938, 1 de 2 tenistas en lograr el GS (record junto a Laver), Ganador del PS de carrera en 1940 (record compartido con Rosewall en 1963 y Laver 1967), 6 GS consecutivos (record), 9 Majors consecutivos (6GS+3PS) en periodo 1938-1940 (record), 37 victorias consecutivas en GS (record), jugador mas joven en ganar el Grand Slam (22 años))

10.Ivan Lendl (USA):_ (8GS,5MC,22MS), N°1:1985-1987, 270 semanas #1, 19 finales de GS (2° detrás de Federer), record finales consecutivas en MC(9) y USO (8), 44 victorias seguidas (2° racha mas larga era open), único jugador en ganar 3 Masters Cup invicto, unico jugador en la era open en tener por lo menos 28 titulos en 3 superficies distintas (clay, carpeta y hard), 10 años consecutivos como top5, mejor racha de partidos en carpeta con 66, unico jugador en llegar a 18 finales consecutivas, 14 victorias consecutivas en Masters Cup (record), 8 titulos consecutivos (empatado con Mcenroe), 90% de victorias (record), unico jugador en ganar durante 14 años consecutivos por lo menos un titulo atp, unico jugador en alcanzar por lo menos 1 final de GS durante 11 años consecutivos (1981-1991), unico jugador en hacer 12 semifinales consecutivas de Masters Cup)

11.Jimmy Connors (USA):_(8GS,1MC,17MS,109 titulos, N°1:1974,1976,1982, 268 semanas #1, 3 US Open en 3 superficies distintas (clay americano, pasto y clay), mayor cantidad de titulos y victorias era open 109 y 1242 respectivamente, 5 US Open (record era open empatado con Federer y Sampras); record de 16 años consecutivos como top10, record de 12 años consecutivos como top5 era open, record de 30 titulos sin perder un solo set, único jugador en lograr por lo menos 13 cuartos de final consecutivos en US Open (1973-1985))

12.John McEnroe (USA):_ (7GS,3MC,19MS,N°1:1981,1983-1984, 77 titulos, Mejor temporada era open 82-3, 8 titulos consecutivos (empatado con Lendl, mejor % de victorias en carpeta (84%).

13.André Agassi (USA):_(8GS,1MC,17MS,1JJOO 1996, N°1: 1999, Ganador de GS carrera 1999, unico jugador era open en ganar todos los titulos importantes, jugador mas viejo en retomar el N°1 en la era open a los 33 años, jugador con mejor % de victorias en AO Open)

14.Fred Perry (ING):_(8GS,2PS,3MS,N°1: 1935-1937 y 1941, (1934 numero 1 indiscutido), primer jugador en ganar los 4 Grand Slam (Ganador de GS carrera 1935), primer jugador en lograrlo)

15.Henry Cochet (FRA):_ (7GS,1PS, 1WHCC,2WCCh, 17MS, JJOO: Plata 1924, N°1: 1928-1930, Ganador de 6 Copa Davis con Francia, nunca jugó AO)

16.Lawrence Doherty (ING):_ (6GS,JJOO: 1900, N°1: 1903-1906, co-numero 1 en 1902, 4 Copa Davis (1903-1906), 5 Wimbledon consecutivos (1902-1906), Mejor año 1903 (ganó todos los majors importantes), durante su carrera RG lo disputaban solo franceses, y el AO comenzó recién en 1905)

17.Boris Becker (ALE):_(6GS,3MC,13MS, 1 CD, alcanzó N°1 en 1991, Jugador mas joven en ganar Wimbledon a los 17 años, jugador con mas victorias sobre un N°1 en ejercicio)

18.Roy Emerson (AUS):_ (12GS, 8 Copa Davis, alcanzó el N°1 en 1964, máximo ganador del AO en 6 ocasiones, 5 seguidas (1963-1967), 3° racha mas larga de la historia: 55 partidos consecutivos)

19.Novak Djokovic (SERB):_ (6GS,2MC,13MS,1JJOO bronce,1CD, N°1: 2011-2012, 4 AO, 3 GS y 5 MS en 2011, 81 semanas numero 1 del mundo (9°), 43 partidos ganados consecutivos, 27 partidos consecutivos ganados en GS consecutivos, (WB2011-RG2012 empatado con Federer), unico jugador era open en ganar 3 AO Open consecutivos, unico jugador en ganar 8 MS distintos).

20.Jack Kramer (USA):_ (3GS, 2PS, N°1: 1948,1949,1951 y 1953, co-numero 1 del mundo en 1950 y 1952)

21.Tony Wilding (NZL):_ (6GS,5MS,1WCCH,1WCCC,N°1: 1913, co-numero 1 en 1911 y 1912, 4 Wimbledon consecutivos (1910-1913), mejor Neozelandés de la historia)

22.Stefan Edberg (SUE):_(6GS,1MC,8MS, 1JJOO 1984, N°1:1990-1991, Quedó a 1 set de lograr el GS de carrera (perdió RG 1989 con Chang) y lograr el hito de Agassi)

23.Mats Wilander (SUE):_(7GS,0MC, 8MS,N°1: 1988, 1 de 6 jugadores en ganar 3 GS en una misma temporada en la era open)

24.Ellsworth Vines (USA):_ (3GS, 5PS, N°1: 1932, co-numero 1 en 1935-1937, venció en finales de Majors a Tilden, Perry, Cochet, solo perdió 2 finales contra Budge (Crawford (WB en 1933) y French Pro 1939)

25.Lew Hoad (AUS):_ (4GS, 1 PS, alcanzó el numero 1 del mundo en 1956, 1 de 4 jugadores en ganar los primeros 3 GS de la temporada (AO+RG+WB) en 1956 ( con Budge, Laver y Crawford), perdió 7 finales de Pro Slam todas contra Gonzales y Rosewall en 6/7, donde ambos fueron # 1 indiscutidos)

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Old 06-25-2013, 09:02 AM   #1413
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

Nadal should get few positions back after this defeat. Titles aren't only thing what make one player great, avoiding loses like yesterday's one defines the champion also
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:32 AM   #1414
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

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Nadal should get few positions back after this defeat. Titles aren't only thing what make one player great, avoiding loses like yesterday's one defines the champion also
I disagree. For me merits are something you already have, you can't lose them later on. There should be no bonus for retiring early. Nadal's merits are the same, he just lost an opportunity to build on them.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:38 AM   #1415
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

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Nadal should get few positions back after this defeat. Titles aren't only thing what make one player great, avoiding loses like yesterday's one defines the champion also
i know how much you hate him but do be a bit more reasonable. The lost was bad, but he isn't the only great one that lost to players outside 50-100 in the early rounds of grand slams. Pete/Graf/Hingis etc all suffered from this. If my memmory was right, Graf and Hingis was still the no.1 when they lost in the first round of wimby at 1994 and 1999 and Pete at least 3-4 times against players outside 100 in FO. Rafa on his not favourite surface: grass, still performed much better than Pete on clay.

And Graf, accordingly to most people, is the GOAT for women tennis player and i don't think the first round lost tarnished her name.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:46 AM   #1416
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

I don't see why anyone would put Borg ahead of Nadal.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:04 AM   #1417
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

What is at stake here for the Wimbledon crown besides even more endorsements, pride, a replica trophy and a winner's cheque?

He gets to move up the GOAT list, of course.

Djokovic win means he will jump from 26 all time to the 7 slam winner club with McEnroe, Vines, Cochet, 21-23 of all time, not sure exactly where I'd put him.

Murray if he wins means he will go from 83 of all time to the 2 slam club among Rafter (72), Safin (65), Kafelnikov (68), I will put Murray
somewhere from 64-72.

Should Nole win this AND the USO, he'd get to 8 slams with Agassi, Connors, Riggs, Fred Perry, Ivan Lendl, Jack Kramer, and Laurie Doherty, the big timers club. If Djoker gets to 8 slams, he will rank between 11-20 of all time. Maybe I will move him to like 18 after he wins Wimbledon and USO, then as he adds more weeks at #1, gradually move him up more, then a 9th slam and his eyes are on Borg's 11 slams at #10 of all time.

If Murray should win Wimbledon AND the USO, he will move into the 3 slams club with Manolo Santana, Jean Borotra, Gustavo Kuerten, Pancho Segura, and I'd rank him anywhere from 42-60 of all time.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:35 AM   #1418
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

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I don't see why anyone would put Borg ahead of Nadal.
Slightly more weeks at #1, the 6 Frenches plus the 5 Wimbledons (incredibly impressive at that time given the vast difference in surface and game style), and the fact that he retired at 25 and would have won more Slams had he kept playing.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:38 AM   #1419
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Nadal up to #9)

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Slightly more weeks at #1, the 6 Frenches plus the 5 Wimbledons (incredibly impressive at that time given the vast difference in surface and game style), and the fact that he retired at 25 and would have won more Slams had he kept playing.
There is no guarantee Borg would have won more. McEnroe played for many more years than Borg but won his last slam when he was 25. And I don't think we should calculate in youth at retirement as a plus, just the merits actually achieved. If for example Nadal should go 0-100 the next four years I won't rank him any lower than I would if he retired now instead (needless to say, I don't expect either scenario).
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:20 AM   #1420
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

With this win, Murray has jumped from 84 to 55 of all time.

I still have him behind Hewitt, Nastase, and Stan Smith as Open Era 2 slam champions.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:37 AM   #1421
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

Johnny, I meant to ask you this....

Before the Open Era, were the Pro Championships (with pros) harder to win than the Grand Slams (with amateurs)? I guess by that I mean were the fields stronger in the pros back then?
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:04 AM   #1422
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

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Originally Posted by Kyle_Johansen View Post
Johnny, I meant to ask you this....

Before the Open Era, were the Pro Championships (with pros) harder to win than the Grand Slams (with amateurs)? I guess by that I mean were the fields stronger in the pros back then?
Well the Pro Slams in those days had no more than 16 players, but it was the top 16 in the world at the time. The amateur slams were just that, amateur, with guys 17-144 contesting them.

Imagine a tournament these days with the top 16. Yeah you only have to win 4 matches, but 4 matches against the best of the best.

Compare that to a "mug" slam with guys ranked 17-144. Now that is 7 rounds, but lesser competition.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:24 AM   #1423
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Well the Pro Slams in those days had no more than 16 players, but it was the top 16 in the world at the time. The amateur slams were just that, amateur, with guys 17-144 contesting them.

Imagine a tournament these days with the top 16. Yeah you only have to win 4 matches, but 4 matches against the best of the best.

Compare that to a "mug" slam with guys ranked 17-144. Now that is 7 rounds, but lesser competition.
Thanks.

I just find it interesting because people talk about what Laver could have done between 63 and 67 in Slams, when Pancho missed 18 years worth of Slams that he could have won. But during that time Pancho racked up 18 pro Slams in 11 years, and that is quite ridiculous. Though in 52, 56, 57, 58, 59, and 60 there were only three rounds and in 61 and 62 only two. And in many years where there were 4 rounds Pancho only had to play three. Still mighty impressive though because as you say, it was the best of the best.

But what's with this score? 21–16, 19–21, 21–8, 20–22, 21–19. Was it first to 21 back then in finals?
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:44 AM   #1424
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

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Originally Posted by Kyle_Johansen View Post
Thanks.

I just find it interesting because people talk about what Laver could have done between 63 and 67 in Slams, when Pancho missed 18 years worth of Slams that he could have won. But during that time Pancho racked up 18 pro Slams in 11 years, and that is quite ridiculous. Though in 52, 56, 57, 58, 59, and 60 there were only three rounds and in 61 and 62 only two. And in many years where there were 4 rounds Pancho only had to play three. Still mighty impressive though because as you say, it was the best of the best.

But what's with this score? 21–16, 19–21, 21–8, 20–22, 21–19. Was it first to 21 back then in finals?
Some tournaments, yes, it was first to 21 games. Trying to compare Pre Open Era vs. Open Era stats can boggle one's mind to no end, trust me
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:16 AM   #1425
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Default Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Murray #55 of all time)

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Well the Pro Slams in those days had no more than 16 players, but it was the top 16 in the world at the time. The amateur slams were just that, amateur, with guys 17-144 contesting them.

Imagine a tournament these days with the top 16. Yeah you only have to win 4 matches, but 4 matches against the best of the best.

Compare that to a "mug" slam with guys ranked 17-144. Now that is 7 rounds, but lesser competition.
Saying the pros were the top-16 is not at all accurate. Laver was definitely top-16 pre-1963. Emerson was surely top-16 for the entire 60s. When the Open Era began he was still making slam QFs at 33 years of age.
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