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Old 03-29-2013, 07:16 PM   #151
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
What are you on about? There were lots of complaints about this thread being in the wrong section, weren't there? Oh wait, there weren't any. The reason moderators are generally disrespected here has nothing to do with adhering or not adhering to the rules, the reasons were outlined before but I can sum them up again:

-they take big decisions that affect the forum and its members in a significant way unilaterally, without giving members a chance to voice their views;

-they make zero effort to get along with posters for the most part, and feel like distant figures laying down the hammer from a distance;

-the first two reasons can be summed up as: zero empathy.

These are the main reasons. I re-emphasize that moderators are not supposed to be glorified bots detecting infractions and enforcing rules blindly, the degree to which they enforce the rules will have very little, if any, bearing in how respected they are. Their activity is actually counterproductive, it breeds disrespect/contempt, which in turn breeds in more trolling. If what you're saying about one of the admins being a lawyer is true, it only makes it worse because it means there are absolutely no excuses for this mindless activity that passes around here as moderation.
You said "It seems like almost no one on MTF ever studied law", so I reponded there are lawyers post on this site.

You have your opinion and I respect that. I just express my opinion that this is the right place for this thread and I put my reason behind that.

Also, I do not agree with you on how the moderators are doing their job here. I may not agree with some of the decisions and how some bans were carried out but they are not as bad as you described here.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:19 PM   #152
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

These quotes reveal everything you'll ever need to know about the MTF moderation team:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloKid View Post
With all due respect, that is absolute rubbish.

How exactly do you feel hunted? And if you ever end up getting infractions because of "your anger", then surely that's not the moderators' fault, is it? It's almost like you're already blaming the moderators and deflecting the blame for any future outbursts you have. I find that baffling.
Ridiculous. The problem is that one of the few posters who actually contributes to this forum, with no infractions, feels he could be banned at any time. Whether this is "true" or not (and how you believe, as a mod with unlimited powers, you're in any position to judge whether his feelings are justified is a mystery) is irrelevant, that many feel this way is the real problem. The mods have failed to make the userbase feel confident in the moderation team and the fairness of the rules, and the mods blame the userbase as usual. Slasher is threatening to leave this forum, and rather than understand this is a problem (unless you would like to run the rankings thread), you accuse him of paranoia, insult him, and move his thread with no justification. We're lucky he took the place of the last guy who did the rankings thread, but even someone like him (and masterclass who posts good posts) isn't enough for you to actually pay attention. You'd rather feel self-righteous while everyone who doesn't troll 24/7 leaves. That'll give you your pretext to ban even more people I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloKid View Post
Can you name examples, please?

I agree the forum moderation is too lenient at times and I think it comes from the moderators often fearing the backlash unfortunately. As whenever the moderators crack down, then it's a dictatorship all of a sudden, no freedom of speech etc. That all leads to the forum being in the state that it is in, basically the reason behind it is the opposite of what many say the reason is. Wholesale changes are needed and most of what you say has no place on mtf.

I don't think the part about moderators complaining about posters who report is true, at least not in the way that would result in the moderator not taking action over a reported post. So reporting of posts remains more than welcome.

See, that's the problem. People being keyboard warriors and completely ignoring the fact that their words are read and reacted to by people just like them. In general the internet is becoming a degenerated beast. Just look at all the crap that is put out there on social media like twitter or read the comments on news websites. Absolutely disgusting.
Once again the same thing taken to absurdity. You acknowledge that the forum is a disaster at the moment, GM being full of trolls, and the userbase revolting against the mods. You then blame the userbase and treat posters as invaders, unable to be reasoned with. Here's a news flash. You have unlimited powers. You and the other mods have created the structure of this forum, the environment people feel like they are posting in, and whether this forum is worthy of effort. "The state" of the forums is 100% your doing, you need to take some responsibility rather than calling for even harsher punishments!

Lenders has repeatedly stated that the main problem is the userbase feels they are excluded from decision making, have no recourse against an arbitrary and severely enforced set of rules, and you have responded with a distrust of the userbase to make collective decisions, a criticism of "innocent until proven guilty" and democratic forms working on this forum, and a persecution complex about "every decision being questioned" as if you do not have complete power. Who are you kidding here? That you don't trust us is the problem, if you don't like the userbase of MTF what exactly is the point of moderation? But please, spare us the persecution complex.

Lenders has pointed out the problems with the moderation, but I'll point out why these problems exist:

1. The mod team is a clique and defends each other, even when they do not agree with a decision. This form of the "code of silence" is common in groups of authority figures.

2. The mods do not trust the userbase. Fundamentally, the idea of democracy is unacceptable because the mods do not believe the userbase is capable. That this has never been put to the test is irrelevant. It's far too late, it's now a vicious cycle where people troll because they do not feel empowered and the mod team becomes more strict and less trusting.

3. The rules are robotically enforced. Whether this is a matter of lack of effort on the mods part, the kind of personality modship attracts, or a genuine belief in the correctness of the rules is a matter for speculation.

4. The mods believe token resistance is acceptable. I'll attribute this one to incompetence over malice, I believe some of the mods genuinely believe they are giving us a chance to respond to decisions in this thread and the Corey Feldman thread. They are wrong, this thread never had a chance of changing anything, and any thread which does not fit into the narrow confines of acceptable resistance is deleted, moved, or the OP banned. This thread serves the function of defusing anger and distracting the issues, as has happened in both threads. A mod successfully turned the Feldman thread into a personal dispute with Johnny Groove, and another mod turned this thread into an attack on Slasher by page 1. Ok, maybe I should attribute this to malice.

5. The mods believe themselves to be impartial. I dunno what to even say here, they are obviously wrong and many mods are just as biased in GM threads as the worst trolls. You'd think the mods would understand that since they are drawn from the regular userbase, they are not somehow superior or different, but mods genuinely think there is a qualitative difference between a regular poster and a mod.

This post is addressed to other users and not the mods, I don't expect they'll take it well nor do I expect to respond to them.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:17 PM   #153
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

^^Lol, one of the biggest trolls here whining about moderation, how very unusual
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:53 PM   #154
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
You do know what a 'blanket statement' means, right?
It's when Michael Jackson's son makes an announcement, I think.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:01 PM   #155
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
On paper, this sounds great, but what was the practical effect of moving this thread here? Killing off the discussion basically, which is something mods were well aware would happen. It seems like almost no one on MTF ever studied Law, or even some introductory concepts at all. Bending the rules is sometimes necessary and fairer than abiding by them strictly. This is why we have humans and not bots in positions of authority.

In this case, does this thread belong in this section? Most definitely. Should it have been moved while it was still very active? Absolutely not because it totally killed off the discussion. It's like some of the idiotic thread merges on GM, which only make sense once the topic dies off - something that ironically would make the moderators' job easier.
If the issue matters to you, you will take the "extra effort" (moving your computer mouse to the scrollbar and finding the bottom of the page, I guess ) to go to the other subforum. In a virtual environment, what makes one "place" more convenient than another? It's not like you have to walk to it.

People like to complain but when someone says "go line up to vote" or "come out to a town hall meeting and make your voice heard" or "go to the rally" then it's like "oh, that's so inconvenient, so much work... oh look, Amazing Race is on TV."

Like those people who can't be bothered to go and vote once in 4 years. Everyone wants change so long as they don't have to exert themselves.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:16 PM   #156
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
You said "It seems like almost no one on MTF ever studied law", so I reponded there are lawyers post on this site.

You have your opinion and I respect that. I just express my opinion that this is the right place for this thread and I put my reason behind that.

Also, I do not agree with you on how the moderators are doing their job here. I may not agree with some of the decisions and how some bans were carried out but they are not as bad as you described here.
It is your opinion that this thread should be in a place of the forum where it gets less attention that where it was getting plenty of discussion. Moving the thread pretty much killed off the discussion.

Also, that MTF is not moderated is not an opinion, it's a fact. If anyone thinks otherwise, it just shows they don't know what the word means. Acting like glorified bots detecting infractions and enforcing pre-set rules and bans is not moderation. What the moderators do on his website is supervision at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
If the issue matters to you, you will take the "extra effort" (moving your computer mouse to the scrollbar and finding the bottom of the page, I guess ) to go to the other subforum. In a virtual environment, what makes one "place" more convenient than another? It's not like you have to walk to it.

People like to complain but when someone says "go line up to vote" or "come out to a town hall meeting and make your voice heard" or "go to the rally" then it's like "oh, that's so inconvenient, so much work... oh look, Amazing Race is on TV."

Like those people who can't be bothered to go and vote once in 4 years. Everyone wants change so long as they don't have to exert themselves.
Most MTF posters are probably not even aware that this section of the forum exists, it is evidently one of the forum sections that gets the least activity. Good luck getting any discussion involving many members going here.

As if that was not enough, the disappearance of the thread in NT made many, including myself, believe the thread had been deleted, only when I checked my reps and clicked on a repped post did I discover the thread had been moved. At the very least, a warning that this thread had been moved here should have been put,
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:01 AM   #157
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
These quotes reveal everything you'll ever need to know about the MTF moderation team:

Ridiculous. The problem is that one of the few posters who actually contributes to this forum, with no infractions, feels he could be banned at any time. Whether this is "true" or not (and how you believe, as a mod with unlimited powers, you're in any position to judge whether his feelings are justified is a mystery) is irrelevant, that many feel this way is the real problem. The mods have failed to make the userbase feel confident in the moderation team and the fairness of the rules, and the mods blame the userbase as usual. Slasher is threatening to leave this forum, and rather than understand this is a problem (unless you would like to run the rankings thread), you accuse him of paranoia, insult him, and move his thread with no justification. We're lucky he took the place of the last guy who did the rankings thread, but even someone like him (and masterclass who posts good posts) isn't enough for you to actually pay attention. You'd rather feel self-righteous while everyone who doesn't troll 24/7 leaves. That'll give you your pretext to ban even more people I guess.

Once again the same thing taken to absurdity. You acknowledge that the forum is a disaster at the moment, GM being full of trolls, and the userbase revolting against the mods. You then blame the userbase and treat posters as invaders, unable to be reasoned with. Here's a news flash. You have unlimited powers. You and the other mods have created the structure of this forum, the environment people feel like they are posting in, and whether this forum is worthy of effort. "The state" of the forums is 100% your doing, you need to take some responsibility rather than calling for even harsher punishments!

Lenders has repeatedly stated that the main problem is the userbase feels they are excluded from decision making, have no recourse against an arbitrary and severely enforced set of rules, and you have responded with a distrust of the userbase to make collective decisions, a criticism of "innocent until proven guilty" and democratic forms working on this forum, and a persecution complex about "every decision being questioned" as if you do not have complete power. Who are you kidding here? That you don't trust us is the problem, if you don't like the userbase of MTF what exactly is the point of moderation? But please, spare us the persecution complex.

Lenders has pointed out the problems with the moderation, but I'll point out why these problems exist:

1. The mod team is a clique and defends each other, even when they do not agree with a decision. This form of the "code of silence" is common in groups of authority figures.

2. The mods do not trust the userbase. Fundamentally, the idea of democracy is unacceptable because the mods do not believe the userbase is capable. That this has never been put to the test is irrelevant. It's far too late, it's now a vicious cycle where people troll because they do not feel empowered and the mod team becomes more strict and less trusting.

3. The rules are robotically enforced. Whether this is a matter of lack of effort on the mods part, the kind of personality modship attracts, or a genuine belief in the correctness of the rules is a matter for speculation.


4. The mods believe token resistance is acceptable. I'll attribute this one to incompetence over malice, I believe some of the mods genuinely believe they are giving us a chance to respond to decisions in this thread and the Corey Feldman thread. They are wrong, this thread never had a chance of changing anything, and any thread which does not fit into the narrow confines of acceptable resistance is deleted, moved, or the OP banned. This thread serves the function of defusing anger and distracting the issues, as has happened in both threads. A mod successfully turned the Feldman thread into a personal dispute with Johnny Groove, and another mod turned this thread into an attack on Slasher by page 1. Ok, maybe I should attribute this to malice.

5. The mods believe themselves to be impartial. I dunno what to even say here, they are obviously wrong and many mods are just as biased in GM threads as the worst trolls. You'd think the mods would understand that since they are drawn from the regular userbase, they are not somehow superior or different, but mods genuinely think there is a qualitative difference between a regular poster and a mod.

This post is addressed to other users and not the mods, I don't expect they'll take it well nor do I expect to respond to them.
I missed this post earlier. Spot, especially the bits I bolded.

I find it highly amusing that some moderators seem genuinely surprised/shocked that the moderating staff is not respected around here. Amusing, yet it pretty much encapsulates everything that's wrong with this so-called moderation on MTF, exposing their complete lack of empathy (if they genuinely don't understand why members are dissatisfied).
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:35 AM   #158
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
I missed this post earlier. Spot, especially the bits I bolded.

I find it highly amusing that some moderators seem genuinely surprised/shocked that the moderating staff is not respected around here. Amusing, yet it pretty much encapsulates everything that's wrong with this so-called moderation on MTF, exposing their complete lack of empathy (if they genuinely don't understand why members are dissatisfied).
Your ad hominem attacks on the moderators are derailing this thread, not it being moved to whatever subforum or all this juvenile nonsense about moderator "powers."

Moderators are cops, enforcing rules that they did not create. This thread was created to discuss bans and specifically the permaban. There's nothing wrong with looking at existing rules/laws and seeing if they can be made better. It's not an "attack" on anyone; no system or community is perfect -- there's always room for improvement. Slasher and others are trying to make MTF better. You're just using all this as a platform to take shots at moderators.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:50 AM   #159
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
Your ad hominem attacks on the moderators are derailing this thread, not it being moved to whatever subforum or all this juvenile nonsense about moderator "powers."

Moderators are cops, enforcing rules that they did not create. This thread was created to discuss bans and specifically the permaban. There's nothing wrong with looking at existing rules/laws and seeing if they can be made better. It's not an "attack" on anyone; no system or community is perfect -- there's always room for improvement. Slasher and others are trying to make MTF better. You're just using all this as a platform to take shots at moderators.
Using big words whose meaning you don't really know is not any more effective than using demonstrably false clichés like 'rules are rules'. There's nothing ad hominem about my contributions in this thread, not to mention that criticizing is not the same as attacking: the problem most people have is not with the rules, but the moderators. Basically, no set of rules will ever be good enough the way the forum is moderated.

Also it's kind of interesting that Slasher, one of those people 'trying to make MTF better' actually agrees with me and backed me up, both in this thread and via rep. Oh well, at least amidst all the nonsense and quasi ad hominens (well not really, but using big words randomly for effect is cool anyway, it seems), you accidently stumbled upon the real problem here: moderators are cops. They are not supposed to be cops. You're basically admitting that their current 'job' is redundant, meaning you basically wrote an entire post calling me out but then reaching the same conclusion.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:07 AM   #160
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

This thread has been closed since it has turned into moderator bashing.

There were some interesting ideas brought up and they have been noticed. This is not the end of this topic, simply just the end of this thread.

This idea by Lee is being discussed by moderators and a couple users.

Quote:
My suggestion is every year moderators set up a period of time for debate on rule changes. Over the year, posters may make suggestions about rule changes.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to rep or PM me.
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