[Dextertje]

Originally Posted by Castafiore

If you work in Brussels and you deal with clients, suppliers,... and you don't understand Dutch, you have a problem.

That is obvious, but I mean, far from all jobs require to get customer contacts. You can easily be an engineer, consultant, manager, etc, without having to deal directly with the customers. Then you can surely get away with English only.

[Dextertje]

And surely Brussels laws don't force every citizen to know French or Dutch.

English is not one of the four official languages here but a lot of expats can easily live here mastering only English.

[Castafiore]

It's possible, sure. But most engineers, consultants,...have to deal with people from outside the company and thus, the language rule applies.

Maybe if that consultant works for the NATO or the EU and mostly works within what is basically that international context with English as the leading language but that's still not a given in every situation. If I contact the NATO or the EU here in Brussels, it doesn't take long to get somebody on the phone who speaks Dutch.

If you're outside the NATO or the EU, you learn Dutch or go elsewhere. I hear many expats in shops in Brussels who speak French or Dutch. It's not often not fluent, it's rough around the edges, it's with an accent (an Irish person who speaks French makes for a cute accent) but they do bother learning it.

That law applies to jobs, not every citizen who lives here.

[-Evita-]

Originally Posted by Castafiore

Again, Brussels is bilingual BY LAW (Belgium has 3 official languages, our capital city 2), that includes international companies. It's not a matter of what's preferential, it's a matter of what's a legal obligation.
Sometimes, it works out if you can appoint one person to the Dutch-speaking region of the country and another to the French-speaking region with both able to speak English but it's cheaper to find somebody who speaks all three languages.

I think you didn't get what I meant. Yes, I understand THE LAW says Brussels is bilingual but that's only for companies, not for every employee of the companies. Your cleaning lady doesn't need to know either language, by your own admission. I'm just saying that there are jobs that don't require one to know the official language of the country, be it Latvian, Dutch or French or all three. I assume you know that Latvian is the official language in Latvia but I'm not required to know it in my current job. I sure use it with my colleagues in informal situations but all the emails we send are in English (even to each other) and our interactions with clients are in English as well (because they're mostly from foreign countries).

Out of curiosity, I looked at our company's office in Brussels and what they're currently hiring. Some vacancies require Dutch, French, and English, some require English and Dutch/French, some say "Verbal and written communication skills in English. Dutch and /or French is an asset." So here you go, I just found a job in Brussels that doesn't require either Dutch or French

[MariaV]

Originally Posted by acionescu

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you laughing at Rafa inhere?

I don't think you misunderstood.

It's rather I have misuderstood Tom being a nice cute cat-loving individual.

[Castafiore]

You're such a know-it-all, Evita.

Everybody that communicates with people from outside the company will have to have a good understanding, if only passive, of Dutch or French. That cleaning lady is just one example of somebody who doesn't need to communicate with Belgians outside the company. I figured that people were smart enough to look further than just one example.
You can do all the quick internet searches in the world but sooner or later, not knowing enough Dutch/French will get you into trouble here if you're dealing with Belgian clients, suppliers.

My long experience of studying and working in Brussels >>>>>>> a quick search on the internet.

FFS, let's change the topic. I'm going out anyway so I'll trust to comeback with Evita teaching me how things really work in Brussels.

Edit: Note to the Latvian: Latvia isn't Belgium so comparing situations from just one viewpoint is futile.

[Commander Data]

Originally Posted by MariaV

I heard heat wave is coming to IW, Tom.
Rafito plays after Wawa and Fed, hopefully Wawa will suck Fed's dick pretty quickly.

while a cold wave is coming to Switzerland

watch your language lady

Originally Posted by acionescu

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you laughing at Rafa inhere?

[Commander Data]

understanding each other often involves an act of willingness are the lack thereof.

[-Evita-]

Originally Posted by Castafiore

You're such a know-it-all, Evita.

Everybody that communicates with people from outside the company will have to have a good understanding, if only passive, of Dutch or French. That cleaning lady is just one example of somebody who doesn't need to communicate with Belgians outside the company. I figured that people were smart enough to look further than just one example.
You can do all the quick internet searches in the world but sooner or later, not knowing enough Dutch/French will get you into trouble here if you're dealing with Belgian clients, suppliers.

My long experience of studying and working in Brussels >>>>>>> a quick search on the internet.

FFS, let's change the topic. I'm going out anyway so I'll trust to comeback with Evita teaching me how things really work in Brussels.

Edit: Note to the Latvian: Latvia isn't Belgium so comparing situations from just one viewpoint is futile.

I do believe you that people working in Brussels should know either French or Dutch, otherwise it would be too difficult for them to get around, pay the bills and so on. All this discussion started because of this post:

Originally Posted by Dextertje

You surely can live and work in Brussels without knowing Dutch

And I agree with JM here. You may know how Brussels works but I know how my company works. Do you really think a Java coder needs to know Dutch? Why? He's working with computer code and all the documentation is in English and all the team meetings will be in English as well (unless all the participants prefer French or Dutch). He won't interact with any suppliers or clients. If he's more senior he may need to interact with some clients, in that case he can be assigned to a project that doesn't have a Dutch client. But in any case, there are plenty of jobs in outsourcing that don't require any interaction with clients. You do the job and interact only with people from your own company. I've seen it tons of times and I've worked that way myself. And please don't tell me this is different because I'm in Latvia; outsourcing works the same way everywhere.

And last but not least, I'm (mildly) insulted that you would think my company would put up false advertisements. If they say a language is not required then it's not required. I can send you a link if you don't believe me.

[-Evita-]

On the other hand, I don't know why I bothered to write all this, I would certainly learn both French and Dutch if I moved to Brussels. But it doesn't matter because I don't plan to.

[acionescu]

Can't we all agree that everybody needs to learn Dutch and move on?



I move on now...

[-Evita-]

Andreea, do you plan to watch Rafa's match live? It's pretty tricky to try to wake up at the right moment, isn't it?

[acionescu]

Actually, I wouldn't miss it for the world. I just downloaded Met's Parsifal so I have something to keep me occupied for 5 hours until the match starts

[Castafiore]

Originally Posted by -Evita-

And I agree with JM here. You may know how Brussels works but I know how my company works. Do you really think a Java coder needs to know Dutch? Why? He's working with computer code and all the documentation is in English and all the team meetings will be in English as well (unless all the participants prefer French or Dutch). He won't interact with any suppliers or clients.

Read my post again, Evita.

I said, more than once, that the language rule applies to people who communicate with people from outside the company, such as clients, suppliers.

The cleaning lady is one example of somebody who doesn't need to follow that rule.
Congratulations, you finally understood that simple line by giving an example, the java coder, that falls in that category.
How difficult was that, eh?
I'll simplify it next time by giving more than one example, okay? Okay.

[-Evita-]

Hilde Where did I ever say the opposite? Of course you should know both languages if you are interacting with customers or suppliers, I never stated otherwise. It was you who said that it's impossible to find such a job in Brussels (other than a cleaning lady) and I was trying to convince you otherwise.