[Slasher1985]

Originally Posted by J99

Why does it say that Cilic has gained 45 points, yet he's still on 2375 from last week, he didn't have any points to defend cause he was injured last year at this time.

Cilic's gain is 45 (because he gets a 45 in his non-countables), but his Effective gain (marked in the second column) is 0. He must score more than 90 points in order to make more points. Please read the instructions in the OP.

- The Gain column displays the total number of points the player has raised at the current tournament.
- The Effective column is the exact number of points the player will win or lose at the next official ranking. The total here is calculated based on all tournaments dropped and all tournaments played (GS qualies, Futures and all other tournaments that will be counted at the next official rankings). The color is determined again by the tournament with most points.

Originally Posted by J99

Howcome it says Simon is on the same points as las week, when he has SF points to defend in Montpellier, unless those points come off next week?

Simon defends nothing this week. This week only Davis Cup points drop out. Since last year, ATP has moved Davis Cup back one week. Montpellier was dropped last week. Please check the past Official Rankings link in the OP and here to see Simon dropping 90 points last week.

If you have more questions, please ask. I'll be happy to answer.

[J99]

Originally Posted by Slasher1985

Cilic's gain is 45 (because he gets a 45 in his non-countables), but his Effective gain (marked in the second column) is 0. He must score more than 90 points in order to make more points. Please read the instructions in the OP.





Simon defends nothing this week. This week only Davis Cup points drop out. Since last year, ATP has moved Davis Cup back one week. Montpellier was dropped last week. Please check the past Official Rankings link in the OP and here to see Simon dropping 90 points last week.

If you have more questions, please ask. I'll be happy to answer.

Thanks.

Since Simon has nothing to defend this week, and his points are the same like Cilic's, it's the same thing with him as Cilic right?

[Slasher1985]

Originally Posted by J99

Since Simon has nothing to defend this week, and his points are the same like Cilic's, it's the same thing with him as Cilic right?

Wait. Simon has 2375, and Cilic 2235. They're not the same amount. If you see otherwise, please clear your cache and reload the OP. If you do see this, maybe I'm not getting what you're asking.

[J99]

Originally Posted by Slasher1985

Wait. Simon has 2375, and Cilic 2235. They're not the same amount. If you see otherwise, please clear your cache and reload the OP. If you do see this, maybe I'm not getting what you're asking.

I meant that they both are still on the same points even though they have 45.

[Slasher1985]

I get you now. They are on effective 0, but they don't have the same potential this week.

Cilic must score more than 90 points to effectively gain points, whilst Simon can get more points simply by winning another match (more than 45 points at this tournament), in which case he will get to 2280. If both Cilic and Simon win their tournaments, they will be 12th and 13th this Monday, with 2535 points (Cilic) and 2440 points (Simon).

[J99]

Are these dropped points from players who are not playing this week from Davis Cup?

I noticed that most of them stay on the same points, except for Almagro who actually has dropped 45, why is that?

[Slasher1985]

Originally Posted by J99

Are these dropped points from players who are not playing this week from Davis Cup?

I noticed that most of them stay on the same points, except for Almagro who actually has dropped 45, why is that?

Yes they are. But they don't represent the effective number of points each player will lose from their rankings, just the number of points that will be taken out from their Davis Cup total (the exact points scored last year this Monday).

For instance, Berdych drops the 40 from last year, but he made 80 this year, 80 which is already inside his Davis Cup total. The 40 dropped from last year is irrelevant to his DC total.
Tsonga drops the 80 from last year, which is currently part of his DC total still. He only scored 40 this year, and this 40 will replace last year's 80, thusly Tsonga will lose 40 points effectively.
Almagro is dropping the 40 from last year, and since he didn't play at all this year, this will impact the tournament out of his countables.
Raonic is like Berdych.
Fish is like Almagro.

So, to generalize, the DC ranking rules state that when DC rounds are played earlier the next year, between that date and the drop date, the maximum number of points between the two years are still part of the ranking, and after the drop date, only the points from the current year. That is why most of the DC points dropped from last year have no effective relevance this year, with the few exceptions you see. I hope you understood.

[Pratik]

@Slasher:

When do DC bonus points drop? Does the player have to repeat the same performance the next year to keep them till the final?

I asked this earlier in the thread too, but didn't get any reply(duong replied, but (s)he wasn't too sure).

[Slasher1985]

Originally Posted by Pratik

@Slasher:

When do DC bonus points drop? Does the player have to repeat the same performance the next year to keep them till the final?

I asked this earlier in the thread too, but didn't get any reply(duong replied, but (s)he wasn't too sure).

The bonus points drop exactly like any other DC points. 52 weeks after they entered. That will always be when the DC Final points drop out, because they cannot be gained before it.

[Pratik]

Originally Posted by Slasher1985

The bonus points drop exactly like any other DC points. 52 weeks after they entered. That will always be when the DC Final points drop out, because they cannot be gained before it.

That's what I thought. But that presents a possible interesting scenario:

Originally Posted by Pratik

I just realised that I do not know when the bonus points of DC are dropped. The most obvious answer would seem that they would drop when the final points are dropped the next year. But, consider this scenario: Player X gets both the team bonus and the performance bonus in a particular year. The next year the player does not play any DC match. Now at year end(after WTF)* he would still have 350275 DC points in his rankings, 200125 of which are as a result of matches he played in the previous year, some over 18 months ago.

*after WTF and before DC F.
**The points are reduced by 75 as that time I had mistakenly counted both the bonuses, which is not possible(Thanks to duong for pointing that out to me)

Originally Posted by duong

Both bonuses can't be cumulated (at most you can have 625 points in a year from the rulebook).

Yes I think they drop 52 weeks after the final.

Edit: @duong: The conversation being on DC, I remembered my old question. Since you weren't sure about it being dropped after 52 weeks, I thought I'd run it through Slasher as well. It's not that I don't trust your answer.

[Slasher1985]

The bonus didn't help the player in his rankings before it was given. Thusly, it doesn't matter that it is a result of matches played more than 18 months before WTF. The player only gained the points because of participating in the final as well, and only after the final. So, it's not like he had points helping his ranking for 18 months before dropping out.

[duong]

Originally Posted by Slasher1985

The bonus didn't help the player in his rankings before it was given. Thusly, it doesn't matter that it is a result of matches played more than 18 months before WTF. The player only gained the points because of participating in the final as well, and only after the final. So, it's not like he had points helping his ranking for 18 months before dropping out.

yes, the ATP has a general principle of points staying in the rankings for 52 weeks (the exception being the WTF).

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are only the result of tournaments played 52 weeks before, there are some "limit" cases :

- futures which are counted in the rankings one week after they happen, then still count 52 weeks later

- zeropointers for not playing 4 ATP500 tournaments in a calendar year which are the result of what the player did in the whole calendar year but are only counted once it's certain that the player will not be able to play 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year. They stay in the rankings for 52 weeks. See Monfils's case who has some zeropointers which will stay in his rankings until july and october whereas he had stopped playing for long in july last year (Del Potro had the same problem when he came back from injury : I really think they should adapt the rule in that case of commitment players who are injured for many months).

The bonus points here can probably be considered as entering the same category.

[Pratik]

@Slasher: I get your point. The points stay in the system only for 52 weeks.
I still find it a bit weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting your beloved rankings system. I realize that something like this has to happen for any sort of bonus.

On another note, Youzhny is one win away from re-entering the top 32(by pushing Stepanek out). With the injury(surgery), it is going to very tough for Steps to be seeded in RG. He is defending over 300 points, which I doubt he will be able to do.

Llodra is one win(maybe two, depending on Haase and Ramos) away from re-entering the top 50(after almost a year)

[Slasher1985]

Originally Posted by Pratik

@Slasher: I get your point. The points stay in the system only for 52 weeks.
I still find it a bit weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting your beloved rankings system. I realize that something like this has to happen for any sort of bonus.

It is not my beloved ranking system. It's ATP's.

Originally Posted by Pratik

On another note, Youzhny is one win away from re-entering the top 32(by pushing Stepanek out). With the injury(surgery), it is going to very tough for Steps to be seeded in RG. He is defending over 300 points, which I doubt he will be able to do.

Youzhny already did that if you look at the current live rankings, because Steps is dropping last year's DC points.

Originally Posted by Pratik

Llodra is one win(maybe two, depending on Haase and Ramos) away from re-entering the top 50(after almost a year)

Only if Ramos and Haase don't win an extra match.

[amirbachar]

Originally Posted by duong

yes, the ATP has a general principle of points staying in the rankings for 52 weeks (the exception being the WTF).

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are only the result of tournaments played 52 weeks before, there are some "limit" cases :

- futures which are counted in the rankings one week after they happen, then still count 52 weeks later

- zeropointers for not playing 4 ATP500 tournaments in a calendar year which are the result of what the player did in the whole calendar year but are only counted once it's certain that the player will not be able to play 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year. They stay in the rankings for 52 weeks. See Monfils's case who has some zeropointers which will stay in his rankings until july and october whereas he had stopped playing for long in july last year (Del Potro had the same problem when he came back from injury : I really think they should adapt the rule in that case of commitment players who are injured for many months).

The bonus points here can probably be considered as entering the same category.

In addition to that, through seeding, this week's result may impact future results, so they don't completely disappear after 52 weeks.