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Old 09-26-2010, 11:41 PM   #301
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Nimrodg View Post
Of course Israel doing as much as it can to stop those settlers. It's not easy to prevent 100% those provocations. Meanwhile, It's a fact that in Israel, those who try to do terror attacks(the jewish ones) getting arrested and punished for that - In Palestine they are considered as heroes.
You can criticize Israel as much as you want, but so far - Israel have done a step to make the peace progress go on, the Palestinians didn't. Abbas knows that there is a right wing government in Israel, and that was not easy to make the moratorium happen, but yet he started the negotiations too late.
Netanyahu couldn't do anything now, as most of the people in he's party needs the settlers votes, so they are fighting for them.
Obama made a mistake that he gave the moratorium such importance and pressured Israel to keep it on, although it's almost not possible considering the current situation in our politics, and it's definitely the decision is not up to Netanyahu.
I believe that there should be a moratorium - but not as a term to negotiation. Israel has done the step and the Palestinians sat at this time doing nothing. All they do now is trying to pass it to Israel's side, that Israel will have the blame for the negotiation failure.

I know Netanyahu can't just do whatever he wants, he has to answer politically.
But how can the people be so much without morals? It could be that after years of conflict and many being raised during this conflict they have become hardened. They have lost the view of the importance of people, though many of the palenstinians have done their share to incite violence, each person has to be given merit on his own behavior.
Much easier to group them all together and label them, this is very wrong. This is one of the main problems I have with Israel but must be careful myself not to label all Israelis as the same.

Israel can just make a new moratorium for a year more till things are worked out.
They can attack flotillas, deny basic human rights and later claim that the Palenstinians didn't do anything. Isreal is trying to make it hard for the Palenstinians to come to the peace table with all these ongoing violations.

As far as palenstinians who do violence being heroes, they believe the occupation is illegal and against their country, they are not alone with this viewpoint. I'm not the only one criticising Israel, there are many and from around the world with the only reason is that they see it as wrong.

Here's an interesting site for your reading.

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:57 PM   #302
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by swisht4u View Post
I know Netanyahu can't just do whatever he wants, he has to answer politically.
But how can the people be so much without morals? It could be that after years of conflict and many being raised during this conflict they have become hardened. They have lost the view of the importance of people, though many of the palenstinians have done their share to incite violence, each person has to be given merit on his own behavior.
Much easier to group them all together and label them, this is very wrong. This is one of the main problems I have with Israel but must be careful myself not to label all Israelis as the same.

Israel can just make a new moratorium for a year more till things are worked out.
They can attack flotillas, deny basic human rights and later claim that the Palenstinians didn't do anything. Isreal is trying to make it hard for the Palenstinians to come to the peace table with all these ongoing violations.

BTW - I won't take the link seriously as I know them, and I think they are bunch of biased people that not showing the true story from both sides.
As far as palenstinians who do violence being heroes, they believe the occupation is illegal and against their country, they are not alone with this viewpoint. I'm not the only one criticising Israel, there are many and from around the world with the only reason is that they see it as wrong.

Here's an interesting site for your reading.

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
First of all, of course people get hardened when they suffer this conflict and even losing relatives. What about their morals? They believe that this is Israel's land, as the Palestinians believes in this land. You know, Palestinians didn't been there forever, throughout the history jewish people been on this land.
Israel did their step. They took a year for moratorium and nothing happened, you can say that something will happen if it'll extend?
Attack flotilla's? maybe preventing from ships to get into her territory, if they wanted they could've sent the supply through Israel.

So you claim that being violence is justified because the occupation? people who murder innocent people should become heroes?
You're not the only one who criticize Israel, that's for sure, and that's the problem. It's more easy for people to criticize Israel as they are the stronger side. People who criticize Israel, especially from other countries, should try to think about their country in the situation of Israel, and think what their country would've done.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:01 PM   #303
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Question Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Excuse me?! No international conventions and treaties? No UNO? No international courts?

International law is the future of civilization.


That's a good one. You think we should all be subject to international laws dictated by Mugabe, Gadaafi, Il Sung, Chavez, Castro, Ahmadinejad, etc, etc.

International law put in the hands of the UNO would be more like the end of civilisation. We have already had the fiasco of giving that Indian crook a Nobel prize for manipulating the UN-funded IPCC into giving his company millions of dollars to spread lies.
Before that we had Kofi Annan and son enriching themselves of the Food-for-Oil programme in Iraq.
Not to mentioning looking the other way during the Rwanda genocide and the genocide in Darfur.

Letting this assembly of buffons decide anything is what is wrong with civilisation. International conventions and treaties can still be made among countries that voluntarily get together. Letting Zimbabwe have a say is just plain idiotic.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:03 PM   #304
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

UN Treaty isn't worth its weight in toilet paper.
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:23 PM   #305
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by gulzhan View Post
Excuse me?! No international conventions and treaties? No UNO? No international courts?

International law is the future of civilization.
Then the future of civilization looks awfully bleak. Diversity is a good thing. There's no need to wipe it out, unless of course you want more war, poverty, suffering, etc.

Please tell me, what institution has jurisdiction (the ability to pass and enforce laws) over the entire world, or at the very least over Israel and the Palestine territories? The EU is the closest thing to an institution that passes international law, since it's laws do in fact cross national boundaries, but it doesn't reach to the middle east. Any nation can leave at any time, though. Other than that, there's nothing that even comes close to resembling international law.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:33 PM   #306
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

The UN is a joke and I for one could spend my tax money better helping those I want to help.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:05 PM   #307
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle...ill-retain-his

israeli hawks likely to retain and expand their power
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:53 PM   #308
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Figures.

You'd think they'd have learned from the Holocaust, rather than use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #309
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Figures.

You'd think they'd have learned from the Holocaust, rather than use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card.
It seems like they did learn from the Holocaust!
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:17 AM   #310
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Israel are assholes. Poor Palestine.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:26 AM   #311
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Both as bad as each other. It's like arguments on Jerry Springer- blame the other over and over without accepting a portion of the blame.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:39 AM   #312
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Both as bad as each other. It's like arguments on Jerry Springer- blame the other over and over without accepting a portion of the blame.
Whilst this is true to an extent, Israel are the ones in a position to do something about it. The current Palestinian administration is completely reactive - it was elected in response to the situation at the time, and it feeds off the continued injustices perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians. The absolute last thing that Hamas wants is for Israel to behave more humanely. To do so merely undermines the support for their position of total and absolute opposition.

Unfortunately, Israel long ago settled into the short term mentality of "fuck what everyone else thinks, our immediate security comes first, last and everything in between". It means there will never be lasting peace in the middle east.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:21 AM   #313
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Both as bad as each other. It's like arguments on Jerry Springer- blame the other over and over without accepting a portion of the blame.
that's akin to a mom who equally berates both of her sons after the 16 year old teen broke the back of his 5 year old brother because he scratched his arm.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:40 AM   #314
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Although the one-state option is sometimes dismissed as utopian, it overcomes major obstacles bedeviling the two-state solution. Borders need not be drawn, Jerusalem would remain undivided and Jewish settlers could stay in the West Bank. Moreover, a single state could better accommodate the return of Palestinian refugees. A state based on principles of equality and inclusion would be more morally compelling than two states based on narrow ethnic nationalism. Furthermore, it would be more consistent with antidiscrimination provisions of international law. Israelis would enjoy the international acceptance that has long eluded them and the associated benefits of friendship, commerce and travel in the Arab world.
This is an outright utopia, and anyone who has ever visited Israel should know this.

I personally don't like the fact, and I don't believe in separation exclusively, but I do believe that some conflicts can only end through separation and that this is one of such conflicts.

The Israelis will probably have to trade the land they occupied (how much land remains to be seen through negotiations) for their long-term security, stable borders will be drawn, refugees will return to their respective defined territories and that's the only peaceful solution that I can see right now.

Many people actually neglect the fact that in many ways Israel as a Jewish state also still fights for its very right to exist. Call me what you want but I believe Jews have the right to their national state called Israel.

Israel is and will be a secular democracy. IMO, it is still a preferred type of government. The rest of the region is not quite compatible with the concept and is not likely to be in foreseeable future, except maybe Lebanon. Israelis have created an oasis in the desert by themselves,you have to see it to believe, they are a proud and diligent nation and no wonder they want to protect what they have created.

As someone said, If Serbia could manage a society with 20% of Albanians in its borders, Kosovo would not be separated right now. But in the long run, Serbs and Albanians will live more peacefully now when they are formally separated. In 10 years it will look much better than it is at the moment. That's why borders are important, so that people can feel safe and start building relations as free people without being oppressed in any way. When people are free from oppression, in the spirit and the letter, only then they can start the process of rendering borders more and more irrelevant. So first, agreed borders should be drawn, Palestina should become a rightful nation, member of UN family. That would probably mean resettlement of some people in Israel and Palestina, but unfortunately that is the initial price that must be paid to achieve durable peace there, imo.

Palestinians have suffered too much, but if they choose to stick to Hamas, what to expect in the future? I think that both sides must choose responsible leaders if they all truly want peace. I am astonished by the disregard of Palestinian lives both by Israel but also by the Palestinian leaders themselves. That's irresponsible to their own people, not to mention children who are so often shamelessly used in propaganda wars.

Jerusalem should be proclaimed a condominium between Israel and Palestine imo, demilitarized and with permanent international presence.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:48 AM   #315
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

They should all emigrate to Brazil, learn to samba and extinguish their nations.
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