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Old 01-27-2013, 12:16 AM   #61
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
Hewitt had better tennis IQ, mentality, passing shots/lob and a better second serve.

Safin didn't have better volleys than Murray that's for sure. He arguably surpassed Murray in every other aspect except defense and return of serve.
Defense is underrated. Murray would return Safins shots that he'd have no right to return and either gain advantage in the rally and hit a winner or force Safin into error.

Basically---a Berdych-Djokovic type of match. We know who mainly wins those !
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:26 AM   #62
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Hear the same about Murray, particularly when he relied more on his variety.
Just... no.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:27 AM   #63
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Andi-M View Post
Defense is underrated. Murray would return Safins shots that he'd have no right to return and either gain advantage in the rally and hit a winner or force Safin into error.

Basically---a Berdych-Djokovic type of match. We know who mainly wins those !
Yeah that is exactly what would happen in today's conditions.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:29 AM   #64
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
You're not talking about the Sampras of 2000 and on, are you?
No. I'm talking about Roger Federer. When these two were in their prime they needed to go through peak Federer if they wanted a Slam. Hewitt was actually a better and more complete player than during his time at #1, he just got consistently overwhelmed by Federer. Safin became a multi Slam winner the hard way beating peak Federer. There was never a harder period to win Slams for the average player as the 2005-2009 five year stretch (in 2004 there was an opening on clay with Nadal not yet peaking). On hardcourt and grass, you had Federer playing at arguably the highest level ever on those surfaces and never ever losing early, if you wanted a Slam you had to go past him. On clay, you had to go through Nadal - also widely considered the best player ever on the surface. For a while, you had to go through both to win a Slam on all surfaces (although mostly on natural surfaces). Right now you have a Federer who's on the wrong side of 30, Nadal isn't the same he once was either; Djokovic's emergence was spectacular but he's still way more beatable than Federer ever was in his pomp, especially on natural surfaces.

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There's no way that's true, especially now. Murray's forehand is much more of a weapon and is equally effective when counter-punching.

Every other point you have made is debatable, besides mental strength.

Sorry, but that is delusional. I refer you to my response above.
Although I greatly disagree, if they are 'debatable' that's enough evidence that Murray and Hewitt are pretty comparable players qualitatively.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:29 AM   #65
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Just... no.
I guess you didn't watch Murray until recently, then.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:32 AM   #66
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Definitely can't agree on IQ. I think you'd be in the minority on that one. Mentality, yes. Passing shots? Maybe. That's very close, though. Second serve? That's the only major thing Hewitt has over Murray.



Murray is a better mover. Backhand is debatable, unless you're only talking about it as an offensive shot. The same goes for the forehand. There are far too many elements to consider when judging individual strokes.

For example, did Safin have a better slice, did he have a better defensive forehand, and so on? The issue of his consistency makes it almost impossible to compare him to other players, since we're talking about a player who was close to unplayable at his peak, but he so rarely hit that peak.

Fuck, missing UFC because of this discussion.
Defense and movement is the same thing almost. Physique will tell you he's a better mover so it's basically implied. Safin's backhand was a better shot than Murray's overall - that's pretty clear in my mind. I used the word arguably because most of the things are pretty close besides serve. The forehand had a much higher ceiling than Murray's so I'd give him the edge there - both are prone to being terrible.

Hewitt's tennis IQ was the main reason he was able to win despite virtually have zero offensive weapons. He played the percentages better than anyone and was a master of exacerbating his opponent's weaknesses. Well you factor in the lob Hewitt is a better exponent of the passing shot.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:33 AM   #67
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
I don't get this argument that the early-to-mid noughties was a harder time to win slams than the present. Yes, Federer was bloody good back then, but who else was actually comparable to Djokovic, Nadal & Murray and their respective levels presently? There were a bunch of bit-part slam champions back then such as Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero, Gaudio, Johansson and Safin. Doesn't that just illustrate that it was not too difficult to sneak a slam or two in despite Federer's dominance?
You have a point but as has been illustrated before countless times in this thread, due to the court surfaces not being homogenized yet the aforementioned players were extremely dangerous on their favourite surface (eg - Roddick at Wimbledon, Ferrero at RG, etc). You still had to play at a remarkably high level to snatch a slam, relative to the era, racquet technology and surface prowess of the top players.

As for the thread question, Murray has to win another slam and spend some time as world number one. Will he do that? I think it's a resounding yes...
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:35 AM   #68
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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I don't get this argument that the early-to-mid noughties was a harder time to win slams than the present. Yes, Federer was bloody good back then, but who else was actually comparable to Djokovic, Nadal & Murray and their respective levels presently? There were a bunch of bit-part slam champions back then such as Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero, Gaudio, Johansson and Safin. Doesn't that just illustrate that it was not too difficult to sneak a slam or two in despite Federer's dominance?
Irrelevant. Federer was everywhere, he didn't give anyone any openings. From 2004 to 2009, if you wanted a grass or hardcourt Slam, you had to go through peak Federer, the rest of the competitions isn't even relevant here, you had to beat Federer anyway - the best player of the Open Era. On clay, you had arguably an even tougher opponent in Nadal. On clay and grass, you generally had to go through both of them, and on HC too when Nadal peak on that surface. It was never tougher for very good yet not all-time great players to win a Slam. The challenge basically was: if you want a Slam, beat either the best player of the Open Era at his peak, the best ever clay player at his peak or both of them back to back.

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Defense is underrated. Murray would return Safins shots that he'd have no right to return and either gain advantage in the rally and hit a winner or force Safin into error.

Basically---a Berdych-Djokovic type of match. We know who mainly wins those !

You're not comparing Berdych with Safin at his best, are you?
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:36 AM   #69
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

Hewitt's return, defence and lob were absolutely insane at his best. People forget how good he was at his peak. Injuries/burnout stopped him being competitive at the top longer, while Peakerer's stratospheric level of tennis kept him away from the slam trophies.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:43 AM   #70
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Andi-M View Post
Defense is underrated. Murray would return Safins shots that he'd have no right to return and either gain advantage in the rally and hit a winner or force Safin into error.

Basically---a Berdych-Djokovic type of match. We know who mainly wins those !
Djokovic is better than Murray and Safin is better than Berdych, so not really the same situation.

Not to mention that, as Leng Jai pointed out, that could happen in todays conditions. In a faster court Safin would blow Murray of the court.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:08 AM   #71
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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He already has in my book.
That's because you are a fangirl, not an objective tennis fan.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:09 AM   #72
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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That's because you are a fangirl, not an objective tennis fan.
I'd have thought you'd agree with that given how much of a mug era you thought it was then
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:11 AM   #73
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
Djokovic is better than Murray and Safin is better than Berdych, so not really the same situation.

Not to mention that, as Leng Jai pointed out, that could happen in todays conditions. In a faster court Safin would blow Murray of the court.
I said previously that I dont know how successful Murray would have been in the early noughties, because big booming 1-2 tennis is not his natural game.

And yeah i imagine Safin vs Murray on a fast court would mainly go to Safin. And Safin Murray on a slow court would mainly go to Murray.

Re- Berdych - Djokovic rivalry I was just trying to highlight how big serving and attacking tennis can be completely nullified by great defenders and counter punchers to a devastating one-sided effect.

Its true peak Safin is most probably a better player than Berdych, but Berdych didnt have the benefit Safin had of playing on courts that suited his game.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:12 AM   #74
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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I'd have thought you'd agree with that given how much of a mug era you thought it was then
It was pretty muggy in a sense that Noserer didn't have competition outside of clay, winning slams still counted for something.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:22 AM   #75
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

Reality: One more slam, WTF and World number 1 (Safin is taken to the cleaners by one more slam IMO)

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