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Old 01-26-2013, 11:53 PM   #46
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Andi-M View Post
The courts are very different now, they are slower. Murray wouldn't play the way he does now if he was playing back then. I still think he would have been successful, but his gamestyle isnt so suited to lightening quick courts. why? because big serving, S+V, and 1-2 punch tennis is not something that is unique to Andy, loads of guys in 90/s early 2000's played that way.

So it truly is difficult to say just HOW successful Andy would have been in another era.
Actually, most of Murray's best results have come on the fastest courts. People think his best surface is slow hard courts, but it really isn't.

The truth is that it's very difficult to compare even the two most recent eras, given the surface changes. Even trying to compare them qualitatively is a problem, since they thrived in different conditions.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:55 PM   #47
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
They were luckier because the top of the game was not as strong.

OK, let's look at this qualitatively. Name some things that Hewitt, in his prime, did better than Murray.

Safin is much harder to compare, since he was so much more erratic.
Hewitt passing shots were better. He was a bit faster too I think (although it's close).

Safin, in his prime, had a better backhand, forehand and serve than both Muray and Hewitt.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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He already has in my book.

Your book is wrong.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:58 PM   #49
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Hewitt passing shots were better. He was a bit faster too I think (although it's close).
You're clutching at straws. There are few people who would sign on to either of those claims. And even for those who do, it's so close that it isn't significant enough to matter.

Quote:
Safin, in his prime, had a better backhand, forehand and serve than both Muray and Hewitt.
Safin is too hard to compare other players with. You can say those attributes were better, but how are you defining "better". Those strokes were "off" almost as often as they were "on".
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
They were luckier because the top of the game was not as strong.

OK, let's look at this qualitatively. Name some things that Hewitt, in his prime, did better than Murray.

Safin is much harder to compare, since he was so much more erratic.
This observation has no grounds in reality. They had to overcome the player who many consider was playing the highest level of tennis ever seen on a consistent basis to win a Slam, how exactly did they have it easier?

As for the question, in his prime Hewitt had a better FH, he was better at redirecting his opponent's pace and using it against him, he was mentally tougher and he played the %s probably better than any player in history. He routinely took down players with far more weapons/firepower on fast courts due to this ability of always selecting the right shot to play in every situation. Oh he had better passing shots too, but I guess that's not overly important considering players charge the net less and less these days. They are imo very comparable players qualitatively.

Safin - better FH, better BH, more power off both wings, better serve, better net play... his movement and ROS weren't as good as Murray's but they were pretty great as well. Pretty much in a whole different galaxy when at his best although Murray is way more consistent.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:00 AM   #51
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

Safin was very unlucky with injuries- missing 2003 season when he was probably favourite for the AO or a top contender, and then the injury in 2005 after Wimbledon. Despite his inconsistencies rotten luck robbed him of his chances to win more slams.

He ought to have won 2002 AO for sure. Johansson was a solid player but he wouldn't have won if Safin had turned up.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:03 AM   #52
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

Hewitt had better tennis IQ, mentality, passing shots/lob and a better second serve.

Safin didn't have better volleys than Murray that's for sure. He arguably surpassed Murray in every other aspect except defense and return of serve.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:04 AM   #53
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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This observation has no grounds in reality. They had to overcome the player who many consider was playing the highest level of tennis ever seen on a consistent basis to win a Slam, how exactly did they have it easier?
You're not talking about the Sampras of 2000 and on, are you?

Quote:
As for the question, in his prime Hewitt had a better FH
There's no way that's true, especially now. Murray's forehand is much more of a weapon and is equally effective when counter-punching.

[quote]he was better at redirecting his opponent's pace and using it against him, he was mentally tougher and he played the %s probably better than any player in history. He routinely took down players with far more weapons/firepower on fast courts due to this ability of always selecting the right shot to play in every situation. Oh he had better passing shots too, but I guess that's not overly important considering players charge the net less and less these days. They are imo very comparable players qualitatively.

Every other point you have made is debatable, besides mental strength.

Quote:
Safin - better FH, better BH, more power off both wings, better serve, better net play... pretty much in a whole different galaxy when at his best although Murray is way more consistent.
Sorry, but that is delusional. I refer you to my response above.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:07 AM   #54
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Hewitt had better tennis IQ, mentality, passing shots/lob and a better second serve.

Safin didn't have better volleys than Murray that's for sure. He arguably surpassed Murray in every other aspect except defense and return of serve.
I think Murray is just a safer pair of hands in general than Safin, despite all of Andy's technical deficiencies compared to the Russian. That counts for a lot, the fact that he will never beat himself.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:08 AM   #55
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Hewitt had better tennis IQ, mentality, passing shots/lob and a better second serve.
Definitely can't agree on IQ. I think you'd be in the minority on that one. Mentality, yes. Passing shots? Maybe. That's very close, though. Second serve? That's the only major thing Hewitt has over Murray.

Quote:
Safin didn't have better volleys than Murray that's for sure. He arguably surpassed Murray in every other aspect except defense and return of serve.
Murray is a better mover. Backhand is debatable, unless you're only talking about it as an offensive shot. The same goes for the forehand. There are far too many elements to consider when judging individual strokes.

For example, did Safin have a better slice, did he have a better defensive forehand, and so on? The issue of his consistency makes it almost impossible to compare him to other players, since we're talking about a player who was close to unplayable at his peak, but he so rarely hit that peak.

Fuck, missing UFC because of this discussion.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:13 AM   #56
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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I think that 09 final was an anomaly, since he generally played at a very high level that season.

Federer's decline has been slower than some people like to admit. Two factors led to Federer being less successful: the players improved and the surfaces became slower. Any decline in Federer's game was relatively small until much more recently.

People were far too quick to claim that Federer was past his prime. That kind of talk began as early as the first half of 2007, when he lost to Canas. It was absurd.
I guess one way to look at it is to say that Federer was exceptionally consistent in 2004 - 2007. Losing 4, 5 and 6 matches in a year is pretty crazy. Since then, his form has been much more variable, whatever you want to attribute that to.

He did start with big decline though, in 2008, when he won only one major title, and lost to players like Fish, Blake, Roddick, Stepanek, and Karlovic. Of that list, only Roddick ever beat him again.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:14 AM   #57
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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Definitely can't agree on IQ. I think you'd be in the minority on that one.
I seriously doubt it. Many highly regarded experts consider Hewitt as one of the most intelligent players of all time. His genius for shot selection is arguably THE reason he was so successful.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:16 AM   #58
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I seriously doubt it. Many highly regarded experts consider Hewitt as one of the most intelligent players of all time. His genius for shot selection is arguably THE reason he was so successful.
Hear the same about Murray, particularly when he relied more on his variety.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:16 AM   #59
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

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He already has in my book.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:16 AM   #60
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Default Re: What Murray needs to surpass Safin and Hewitt?

I don't get this argument that the early-to-mid noughties was a harder time to win slams than the present. Yes, Federer was bloody good back then, but who else was actually comparable to Djokovic, Nadal & Murray and their respective levels presently? There were a bunch of bit-part slam champions back then such as Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero, Gaudio, Johansson and Safin. Doesn't that just illustrate that it was not too difficult to sneak a slam or two in despite Federer's dominance?
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