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Old 01-24-2013, 01:47 AM   #151
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Hey, at least I'm not the one condemning the West while sitting smack in the middle of it, waging epic battles from an exceedingly safe distance. Put your money where your mouth is, eh?

Btw, just try telling someone that Albanians should get like 30% or more places in the Parliament should Kosovo ever return, and watch the reactions.
I will repeat: don't single us out. We don't like that. I judge or condemn no one. Read my posts more carefully.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:49 AM   #152
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Oracle View Post
I remember just prior to the war in Kosovo, the american press secretary james rubin (I have to restrain myself calling him names), went on the air on cnn, and shamelessly claimed that soccer fields were being used to bury thousands of dead albanians. He did a great job with this propaganda and lies and eventually softened up a naive public in the west to authorize the aggression against serbia. When the Nato occupiers entered after the war, low and behold, there were no graves, only soccer players. The media shrugged this off. No apologies.

Once Serbia is ready to deal with it's allegations, it will judge itself. We are a nation of conscience, of love for God and our neighbours. We have one of the most diverse populations in Europe where all people are welcome, more so than our neighbours. We do not however acknowledge the accusations of those who waged an imperialistic war of lies against us, and continue to do so at the kangaroo court in the Hague.
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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Only that their names appeared on the rosters of the Bosnian Muslim army and thus could not be included in the recent body count as civilians. Several thousand Srebrenica "civilians" were on the official rosters and thus counted as military. They even had protests about this - about not being counted as civilians.

What court made the finding and what was their reasoning? I don't have time or interest to read their transcripts, that's your job.

Let's get real: I have not seen evidence that more than 35,000 Muslim civilians were killed. I have not seen evidence regarding: 1.) who killed them (mostly by Serb forces, I'm sure, but many clearly were not); 2.) how and where were they killed (a mortar shell? bombing and crossfire? or taken prisoner, lined up and executed?).

As such, I don't know how many people were mowed down with machine guns in what could be termed conventional genocide. I would wager that the number is much smaller than has been claimed and probably is in the range of 10,000 or so, perhaps less. Horrific, yes. Genocide, absolutely not. But whatever the case may be, it has no place being mentioned alongside horrors like Auschwitz...or Jasenovac, for that matter.

I also find it curious that despite the fact that you were allegedly aware of Sijekovac (highly doubtful, but be that as it may), you are not at all puzzled by the fact that it was never taken up as a case by the ICTY or any local tribunal. How can we explain that the first atrocity of a war, in which dozens of innocent people were murdered, is not prosecuted at all? What does that tell us about the credibility of the ICTY? In my view, it is very telling.
Guys, ignore this caesar clown.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:49 AM   #153
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Guys, ignore this ceasar clown.
I've given you every opportunity to provide me with alternative evidence that supports your views, and change my mind. You've not only declined but resorted to insulting me.

That indicates to me that either you know you're full of shit, or you're too stupid to engage in a discussion that involves substantiating your points. Which is it?
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:51 AM   #154
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Okay that's cool. If it's true I've definitely learned something. Got a source?
I read this on Muslim forums, in the native language, where there was much gnashing of teeth over this. I can't find you an English language source right now. Nor do I care (more of that later).

Quote:
WTF? If you haven't even read the forensic evidence in relation to the massacre that was collated for the trial, then how can you dismiss it so casually?
You have read the forensics? How many victims had blindfolds and/or ligatures?

Quote:
So to summarise:

1) You haven't looked at the evidence
2) You don't have time to look at the evidence
3) For some unspecified reason you think that the number is far less than any credible international study has proposed
4) You don't really care anyway because it was payback

Awesome.
1.) You have been in Tuzla morgue and "looked at the evidence"?
2.) No, I'm in medical school and have a final exam two days from now and don't have time to do this sort of research.
3.) The most recent "credible international study" found ~35,000 Muslim civilian victims. I have yet to see a breakdown with respect to who killed them and how. And that is critical, because it's the linchpin of "genocide" that's being touted by people like you.
4.) I care, but I simply don't find myself more so outraged by one atrocity vs. another. There were atrocities on all sides, I am disgusted and scandalized by them all. That doesn't mean I'm an idiot who will start devoting my life towards mourning something that has nothing to do with me and frankly is a detail of world history, even as my own people's very real experience of genocide in WWII is systematically dismissed, minimized, covered up, ignored, and outright erased out of the books - in no small part by the same groups that are now accusing us of genocide. I am outraged that Srebrenica happened, but I am yet more outraged that Jasenovac happened and that it is far less known and far less deemed worthy of mourning than Oric's gang of hoodlums and the innocents he dragged along with him into hell.

Well, God sees all. He will avenge both Jasenovac and Srebrenica and all the victims of imperial fascism (a very long list that includes Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Chile, Cyprus, etc. - to name a few).

Quote:
The evidence in relation to that incident is sketchy and highly conflicted. It's not possible to take it before a court because nobody knows for certain what actually happened.

If a war crime was committed it's terrible that the perpetrators couldn't be called to account, but sometimes that happens. It's not fair, but it doesn't mean that there was some kind of UN/ICTY conspiracy.
It's not sometimes, it's always. Every atrocity against Serbs is "sketchy" and "conflicted" - every atrocity by Serbs is clear as day. And then these "sketchy" crimes are never prosecuted. Or the perpetrators get acquitted for atrocity after atrocity after atrocity. Whether it's Klecka or the Kosovo organ theft scandal or the 2004 pogrom or Operation Flash or Operation Mistral or Operation Storm or Oric's escapades or Mirko Norac's ghoulish crimes in Gospic or the murder of thousands of Sarajevo Serbs by Muslim warlords - somehow...always...the evidence of atrocities against Serbs doesn't merit prosecution or conviction.

And yet, we still have tens of thousands of dead Serbs and hundreds of thousands of expelled Serbs. And there's no explanation being provided for that. Other than Milosevic.

Anyway, I'm off to study. I have work to do, I'm sure you have work of your own to do, and I don't have time or interest to debate this further. I think I've made some salient points and others can glean what they may. You and I will clearly not agree on this.

Good night.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:56 AM   #155
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Oracle View Post
I will repeat: don't single us out. We don't like that. I judge or condemn no one. Read my posts more carefully.
Yea, I've read carefully. Everybody are guilty and there should be peace in the world. It's not a beauty pageant unfortunately

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Originally Posted by Mr. Oracle View Post
Once Serbia is ready to deal with it's allegations, it will judge itself. We are a nation of conscience, of love for God and our neighbours.
I really have to quote this one again. You acuse me of generalization, but the quote above is one of biggest generalizations I've ever heard. It borders with parody, but you really mean it? Tell me, when was the last time you lived in Serbia? I mean for real, not on a Christmas vacation?
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:08 AM   #156
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
I read this on Muslim forums, in the native language, where there was much gnashing of teeth over this. I can't find you an English language source right now. Nor do I care (more of that later).
Great, more unsubstantiated stuff. Can you really blame me for not believing you? I am trying hard here but I need something to hang my hat on other than your word.

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You have read the forensics? How many victims had blindfolds and/or ligatures?
Those were the findings of an international court, my friend. Do you have any reason to doubt them other than "it's all a big anti-Serbian conspiracy"?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
I am outraged that Srebrenica happened, but I am yet more outraged that Jasenovac happened and that it is far less known and far less deemed worthy of mourning than Oric's gang of hoodlums and the innocents he dragged along with him into hell.
Are you really surprised that a massacre of up to 8,000 people within the last decade is better known than one incident that was past of a massive world war more than half a century ago? That's just reality, man. A lot of nasty shit went down in WWII and these days we only get a high(low)lights reel. Everyone knows about Auchwitz but nobody remembers the other stuff. Not fair but that's just how it is.

I mean perhaps Jasenovac should be better known than it is, but it's not evidence of some sort of selective international persecution of Serbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
It's not sometimes, it's always. Every atrocity against Serbs is "sketchy" and "conflicted" - every atrocity by Serbs is clear as day. And then these "sketchy" crimes are never prosecuted. Or the perpetrators get acquitted for atrocity after atrocity after atrocity. Whether it's Klecka or the Kosovo organ theft scandal or the 2004 pogrom or Operation Flash or Operation Mistral or Operation Storm or Oric's escapades or Mirko Norac's ghoulish crimes in Gospic or the murder of thousands of Sarajevo Serbs by Muslim warlords - somehow...always...the evidence of atrocities against Serbs doesn't merit prosecution or conviction.
You realise that multiple Bozniaks and Croats were charged with war crimes against Serbians and convicted, right?

There's plenty of crimes/potential crimes on all sides of the conflict that nobody has been brought to account for. It's horrible, but it's war. I find the way you minimise the crimes that have been brought to account by crying persecution to be extremely disturbing.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:17 AM   #157
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
I read this on Muslim forums, in the native language, where there was much gnashing of teeth over this. I can't find you an English language source right now. Nor do I care (more of that later).



You have read the forensics? How many victims had blindfolds and/or ligatures?



1.) You have been in Tuzla morgue and "looked at the evidence"?
2.) No, I'm in medical school and have a final exam two days from now and don't have time to do this sort of research.
3.) The most recent "credible international study" found ~35,000 Muslim civilian victims. I have yet to see a breakdown with respect to who killed them and how. And that is critical, because it's the linchpin of "genocide" that's being touted by people like you.
4.) I care, but I simply don't find myself more so outraged by one atrocity vs. another. There were atrocities on all sides, I am disgusted and scandalized by them all. That doesn't mean I'm an idiot who will start devoting my life towards mourning something that has nothing to do with me and frankly is a detail of world history, even as my own people's very real experience of genocide in WWII is systematically dismissed, minimized, covered up, ignored, and outright erased out of the books - in no small part by the same groups that are now accusing us of genocide. I am outraged that Srebrenica happened, but I am yet more outraged that Jasenovac happened and that it is far less known and far less deemed worthy of mourning than Oric's gang of hoodlums and the innocents he dragged along with him into hell.

Well, God sees all. He will avenge both Jasenovac and Srebrenica and all the victims of imperial fascism (a very long list that includes Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Chile, Cyprus, etc. - to name a few).



It's not sometimes, it's always. Every atrocity against Serbs is "sketchy" and "conflicted" - every atrocity by Serbs is clear as day. And then these "sketchy" crimes are never prosecuted. Or the perpetrators get acquitted for atrocity after atrocity after atrocity. Whether it's Klecka or the Kosovo organ theft scandal or the 2004 pogrom or Operation Flash or Operation Mistral or Operation Storm or Oric's escapades or Mirko Norac's ghoulish crimes in Gospic or the murder of thousands of Sarajevo Serbs by Muslim warlords - somehow...always...the evidence of atrocities against Serbs doesn't merit prosecution or conviction.

And yet, we still have tens of thousands of dead Serbs and hundreds of thousands of expelled Serbs. And there's no explanation being provided for that. Other than Milosevic.

Anyway, I'm off to study. I have work to do, I'm sure you have work of your own to do, and I don't have time or interest to debate this further. I think I've made some salient points and others can glean what they may. You and I will clearly not agree on this.

Good night.
This is the wisest approach when people throw accusations around and demand simple explanations, there are no simple answers. I think most Serbs will be less reticent to give simple answers when they sense that the whole "package" of issues and grievances are on the table. I can smell someone who has an axe to grind a mile away, they can chase their own tails for my amusement instead.
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th. But any problem cannot be found?
is there nothing?  Because, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal
certainly win Roger? Even David Ferrer? (Roger 14 - 0 David)
Or, Roger loses even before QF? lol

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Old 01-24-2013, 02:22 AM   #158
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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This is the wisest approach when people throw accusations around and demand simple explanations, there are no simple answers. I think most Serbs will be less reticent to give simple answers when they sense that the whole "package" of issues and grievances are on the table. I can smell someone who has an axe to grind a mile away, they can chase their own tails for my amusement instead.
Dude I have no axe. I kind of believe there is more to the situation than the accepted/UN view of the war, which is kind of the reason behind the questions. I'm trying to get a fuller picture.

The problem is that I am not really getting much in the way of substance to improve my understanding of the situation. Seems like the response from people like Aloimeh and nick the greek is basically:

1) The UN / Western media story / evidence presented at ICTY is lies & conspiracy
2) X is what really happened
3) I don't actually have any evidence I can point you to that proves X but you should take my word for it
4) If you don't take my word for it then you are an idiot and a moron

You gotta admit, that's a pretty poor argument. I am totally willing to accept (1) and (2) if someone shows me some evidence at (3) but I'm just not getting any joy.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:17 AM   #159
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Wow, I forgot Sweet Cleo opened this shit.
Anyway, what ideas of Milosevic? How to rob Serbian people of their money? How to stay in power until he dies?
If you think he was a nationalist, think again. All he did was betraying Serbs west of Drina river. He sold them thinking he will be awarded Nobel peace prize. Seriously. He desperately wanted approval from Americans like a molested dog from his master.
About the war, he tied the army's hands and let our enemies grow stronger. He should have used everything on our disposal and napalm bombed Croatia in '91. There would be no war in Bosnia after that.
Caesar1844, if you want us to grovel and apologize for defending our land and people, you won't get that satisfaction. Milosevic wasn't a hero, but Radovan and Ratko are in the hearts of huge majority of Serbs. If you are shocked by this, we don't give a rat's ass. You're probably a westerner and your opinion is not very important for us. We just look to survive and hold on until Muslim masses and other third worlders destroy your rotten countries from within.
To all my Serbian brethren "defending" Serbia from USA, Canada, Australia, Germany... stop being hypocrites and come back home before it's too late.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:29 AM   #160
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

lol wow. Man, I feel sorry for the Serbs that are reading your post and cringing.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:39 AM   #161
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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lol wow. Man, I feel sorry for the Serbs that are reading your post and cringing.
Sure, there are weaklings who will cringe. But, the vast majority won't. And those people are mostly not on internet forums arguing with the likes of you. I am a fool for wasting my time doing this.

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Old 01-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #162
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Sure, there are weaklings who will cringe. But, the vast majority won't. And those people are mostly not on internet forums arguing with the likes of you. I am a fool who wastes his time doing this.
Well you got one thing right in that paragraph.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:47 AM   #163
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Too bad ektremista is not around anymore. He'd make vucina sound like a moderate choirboy...
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:51 AM   #164
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Wow, I forgot Sweet Cleo opened this shit.
Anyway, what ideas of Milosevic? How to rob Serbian people of their money? How to stay in power until he dies?
If you think he was a nationalist, think again. All he did was betraying Serbs west of Drina river. He sold them thinking he will be awarded Nobel peace prize. Seriously. He desperately wanted approval from Americans like a molested dog from his master.
About the war, he tied the army's hands and let our enemies grow stronger. He should have used everything on our disposal and napalm bombed Croatia in '91. There would be no war in Bosnia after that.
Caesar1844, if you want us to grovel and apologize for defending our land and people, you won't get that satisfaction. Milosevic wasn't a hero, but Radovan and Ratko are in the hearts of huge majority of Serbs. If you are shocked by this, we don't give a rat's ass. You're probably a westerner and your opinion is not very important for us. We just look to survive and hold on until Muslim masses and other third worlders destroy your rotten countries from within.
To all my Serbian brethren "defending" Serbia from USA, Canada, Australia, Germany... stop being hypocrites and come back home before it's too late.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:03 PM   #165
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Bold parts just show how little you know and your tendency to simplify things.It'd take me long time to "enlighten" you and this is a tennis forum, not a political one.So, if you really wanna know more send me your e-mail in a PM and I'll "educate" you.
well, this is the OFF TOPIC board of a tennis website and we're in a thread about Serbians. If you aren't willing to contribute anything to the discussion, why don't you just leave? Your note to "educate and enlighten" others via e-mail/PM has already been duly noted. thank you.
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