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Old 01-19-2013, 02:57 AM   #121
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Novak is talking tripe I'm afraid. He's either naive or hiding something (hopefully the former) as doping controls in tennis are so lax it allows someone to use Lance's drugs and methods and get away with it.
A world's #1 tennis player is naive about the state of drug use in sport?

yeah, I will beat Tomic to win 4 consecutive calendar year GS.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:58 AM   #122
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by Myrre View Post
If I was a professional (clean) tennis player I would want as much testing as possible to catch the cheaters. Anyone who doesn't want more testing or constantly complains about it is a suspect in my eyes.
This.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:09 AM   #123
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Man, I dunno what the fuck you're talking about.

If you're saying that the ATP/ITF doesn't need Djokovic to tell them that their testing is crap - well no shit, Sherlock. I'm saying that if players like Djokovic came out and said it in press conferences, it would make the debate headline news and put some pressure on them to do something about it.

Half the reason dope testing in tennis is so bad is because ITF/ATP have successfully perpetuated the misconception that their testing is a lot more effective than it is. 90% of tennis fans have no idea how out of date the system is. All they know is that ITF says it does a lot of testing, and there are very few tennis players caught. Therefore they assume that tennis is clean.
I cannot good-rep you enough for your balanced, matter-of-factly, posts in this thread.

I am all for much more stringent drug-testing in tennis, even if Federer turns out to be doped.

But to listen to all these tards and posters with serbian flags throwing out all logic to defend Djokovic and more stringent drug testing is making me
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:01 AM   #124
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by Fujee View Post
I wouldn't be surprised. Lance proved you can insulate yourself from absolutely anything you wish within reason. Even by his own admission - which may or may not be completely true - he said the only reason he got caught was due to his 09/10 comeback, which showed considerable anomalies with his previous testing results. These incredibly rich tennis stars have access to the best doctors and PR teams in the world, all this combined with an incredibly relaxed anti doping regimen suggests at least highly possible foul play.

It may not be true, but there is probable cause to suggest otherwise.


Fortunately no civilized legal system takes "probable cause" to mean what you think it does.

SO what in the mind of all the conspiracy theorists would be "sufficient" to ward off the evil spirits of doping?
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:08 AM   #125
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
I don't really want to get bogged down in specific allegations against specific players because:

(a) it will get fantards in here completely missing the point and defending their hero, and
(b) it will give the mods an excuse to delete/close/bury this discussion for the 100,000th time.

The real problem is the system. In most sports, a player taking time out for injury is a player taking time out for injury. In tennis, because of the lack of transparency and lack of out-of-competition testing, when someone takes time off for injury there are always whispers. They might be genuinely injured. Or they might be serving a silent ban for missing dope tests. Or they might be using a minor injury as an excuse to get juiced and avoid in-competition tests. Nobody knows.

People are whispering about Nadal's current layoff, and it's not because of anything he's done - it's because the system is so weak that nobody has any faith in it, so they're willing to think the worst of any potentially-suspicious circumstances.


And yet you had no problem highlighting Djokovic as being the prime doping suspect due to his big jump in fitness. Hypocritical much?

By the way, due to Nole's massive fitness improvement (and doping suspicions), he probably gets tested much more often then before. Unless there is some big conspiracy from ATP, it would be nearly impossible for Nole to cheat. Same goes for Fed/Murray and Rafa. It is lower ranked guys, who have less to lose and who are not under the microscope, that can get away with doping more easily. It is very difficult for the elite players to get away with doping nowadays...unless you are one of those conspiracy theory believers.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:27 AM   #126
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by zcess81 View Post
And yet you had no problem highlighting Djokovic as being the prime doping suspect due to his big jump in fitness. Hypocritical much?
Dude, I wasn't accusing Djokovic of anything. I was using him as an example to illustrate how someone falls under suspicion for something that could be quite innocent, just because the system is so poor that nobody knows who's doing what.

But kudos to you for taking a systemic issue and making it all about a perceived sleight on your favourite player.

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Originally Posted by zcess81 View Post
By the way, due to Nole's massive fitness improvement (and doping suspicions), he probably gets tested much more often then before. Unless there is some big conspiracy from ATP, it would be nearly impossible for Nole to cheat. Same goes for Fed/Murray and Rafa. It is lower ranked guys, who have less to lose and who are not under the microscope, that can get away with doping more easily. It is very difficult for the elite players to get away with doping nowadays...unless you are one of those conspiracy theory believers.
Big assertions. Sauce?

Look at the numbers. Even the top players get tested laughably infrequently. Anyone could be doing it and we'd have NFI. Fuck conspiracy theories - you only have to look at other sports to know that when there's big money at stake, pro athletes will take any advantage they can get. Why should tennis be any different?
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:41 AM   #127
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

Sorry, but this one shows how Djokovic has no idea or basically just dumb, or he is protecting someone. Because how can you say your sport is clean if you haven't been tested yourself for six month, that is just dumb. And how come he is so strong against Armstrong but is so nice with Agassi, i know i know Cocaine is different to PED, but still it was illegal. And the doping started from hearsay and they checked, in ATP if you say something about a top player they will just shut you down.

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He's 100% right about Armstrong. That guy went from a legend and a role model to a pathetic junkie. I wish that you could somehow take away his money. I hope he bankrupts. And I'm saying this as I guy who thinks that doping should be legalized in some sports (like basketball) bcs professional sport is entertainment and people would enjoy more if you would be allowed to 'improve' yourself through doping and the main priority would be to make as less unhealthy doping as possible. I would risk my health for 10/20/50 M bucks. But until then, if everybody else is playing by the rules, you play by the rules also. And this is the worst case bcs of his 'I beat cancer, I live so healthy' shit. Many people looked up to him and now he disappointed.
Do you actually know what your are talking about, read facts please. Everyone (cyclists) around Armstrong was doping, the only ones that didn't doping was those far far behind around 50 best, so there you go. He only came out because he didn't want to drag his foundation with it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:17 AM   #128
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by zcess81 View Post
Unless there is some big conspiracy from ATP, it would be nearly impossible for Nole to cheat. Same goes for Fed/Murray and Rafa. It is lower ranked guys, who have less to lose and who are not under the microscope, that can get away with doping more easily. It is very difficult for the elite players to get away with doping nowadays...unless you are one of those conspiracy theory believers.
I genuinely don't understand comments like this. Have you not been reading the numbers people have been writing about the testing sytem in tennis? About how infrequent and ineffective it is?

It's no conspiracy theory, it's plain facts. It would be incredibly easy to get around the testing in tennis and dope. That much is indisputable really.

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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
You know, I don't think so. From the players' perspectives, they get 10ish tests a year in competition, and have to give location data 365 days a year. That would be a major pain in the ass to comply with.
This is something that interests me. Would you say that a player could legitimately feel like the testing regime was thorough? I struggle to believe all the players who say "doping isn't a problem in tennis, the testing is fine" are being deliberately deceptive so could they genuinely be ignorant of the testing regime's shortcomings?

Also as a corollary question, on the macro level we know the system is a joke from but the perspective of an individual player how onerous is the testing and how does it compare to other sports on the individual level?
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:49 AM   #129
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Originally Posted by Arakasi View Post
I genuinely don't understand comments like this. Have you not been reading the numbers people have been writing about the testing sytem in tennis? About how infrequent and ineffective it is?

It's no conspiracy theory, it's plain facts. It would be incredibly easy to get around the testing in tennis and dope. That much is indisputable really.



This is something that interests me. Would you say that a player could legitimately feel like the testing regime was thorough? I struggle to believe all the players who say "doping isn't a problem in tennis, the testing is fine" are being deliberately deceptive so could they genuinely be ignorant of the testing regime's shortcomings?

Also as a corollary question, on the macro level we know the system is a joke from but the perspective of an individual player how onerous is the testing and how does it compare to other sports on the individual level?

Can you name me a few former TRUE elite players who have been exposed as cheats? Agassi comes to mind, but he didn't take performance enhancing drugs, as far as I know. Most former tennis cheats are nowhere near no.1 spot. Until they expose an elite player (multiple grand slam winner), such as Fed/Rafa/Nole etc., it just shows that it is far from easy to cheat in tennis if you are constantly under the microscope. This is especially true now where we have zero privacy. The moment Fed/Nole/Murray/Rafa start taking performance enhancing drugs/cheating, rumors would spread like a plague and they'd have nowhere to hide.

Basically, until we have a concrete proof (such as Armstrong in cycling), it is extremely cynical to assume that the same is true in tennis at the very top of the game.

Like I said before, unless you are into conspiracy theories, it is extremely difficult to believe that the elite players, who are constantly under the microscope, and who have so much at stake, are taking performance enhancing drugs. Lower ranked guys, maybe, as they have less to lose and as they are off the spotlight, but the top 4-5...forget it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:05 AM   #130
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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The moment Fed/Nole/Murray/Rafa start taking performance enhancing drugs/cheating, rumors would spread like a plague and they'd have nowhere to hide.
If anything, it'd be easier for tennis players to hide, rather than in team sports where lots of people know. One doctor as supplier, nobody else knows. Maybe the physical trainer, but that's it.

The drugs Armstrong was using in 1999 would work now in tennis, with no chance of being caught. Cycling has brought all the doses and methods needed to beat the tests out into the public, and with the current complete joke of a testing system that tennis has, it's totally safe.

It really is that weak - Dick Pound (founder and ex-head of the World Anti Doping Agency) said that anyone caught doping at the US Open has "failed a drug test as well as an IQ test."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...oping/1639911/

That's why the only bust for HGH in tennis, a drug whose use is rampant in every sport worldwide, was made by customs and not testing.


Here's Fuentes in 2006, a famous Spanish dope doctor, saying that 20% of his clients are tennis players:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/alicante...L-DEP-232.html

Several other dope doctors from cycling have worked in tennis, for multiple big names over the last 20 years. One of them was Armstrong's doctor, he was employed at a big tennis academy until he was fired last year.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:11 AM   #131
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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This is something that interests me. Would you say that a player could legitimately feel like the testing regime was thorough? I struggle to believe all the players who say "doping isn't a problem in tennis, the testing is fine" are being deliberately deceptive so could they genuinely be ignorant of the testing regime's shortcomings?
You know, I think they might find it quite irritating. I'd certainly be grumpy if someone woke me up at 6am, and I had to go piss in front of them.

Quote:
Also as a corollary question, on the macro level we know the system is a joke from but the perspective of an individual player how onerous is the testing and how does it compare to other sports on the individual level?
It's not remotely as onerous as cycling, where guys can be tested a dozen times in a single event (tennis: 0 or 1 max), and they can get 30+ out of competition tests a year (tennis: 0 to 2). But, regardless of that, the tennis player still has to maintain that whereabouts, which would again be pretty irritating.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:25 AM   #132
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Until they expose an elite player (multiple grand slam winner), such as Fed/Rafa/Nole etc., it just shows that it is far from easy to cheat in tennis if you are constantly under the microscope. This is especially true now where we have zero privacy.
First of all they are not constantly under the microscope. It has been demonstrated many times in this thread and other threads that testing is a lot weaker in tennis that most other sports and there are many holes in the system.

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The moment Fed/Nole/Murray/Rafa start taking performance enhancing drugs/cheating, rumors would spread like a plague and they'd have nowhere to hide.
You are making statements based purely on conjecture. How do you know that rumours would spread? How do you know it would be difficult to hide? All we know as facts are that the testing regime is weak and that players have an incentive to dope. That would strongly suggest that any player who wanted to dope wouldn't have too much difficultly.

Quote:
Basically, until we have a concrete proof (such as Armstrong in cycling), it is extremely cynical to assume that the same is true in tennis at the very top of the game.

Like I said before, unless you are into conspiracy theories, it is extremely difficult to believe that the elite players, who are constantly under the microscope, and who have so much at stake, are taking performance enhancing drugs. Lower ranked guys, maybe, as they have less to lose and as they are off the spotlight, but the top 4-5...forget it.
You've misrepresented my argument and ignored the initial point you made yourself. We are not talking about if players are doping or not. We are talking about how easy it would be to dope. You initially said it would be very difficult for a top player to dope. The facts suggest otherwise.

As for whether they are actually doping, thank god you're not in charge of anything with this mentality! According to you until someone is caught it's not a problem?! The reality is:

1) doping is relatively easy to do without getting caught in tennis
2) players have an incentive to dope
3) many high level sports have doping problems.

When you take those three facts into account it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that doping may be a problem in tennis. The abusrd view is to assume that the sport is completely clean because no one has been caught by an system which is clearly inadequate.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:40 AM   #133
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

Only doppers talk about doping.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:50 AM   #134
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

Doppers
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:12 AM   #135
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Default Re: Djokovic on Armstrong, cycling, doping etc

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Basically, until we have a concrete proof (such as Armstrong in cycling), it is extremely cynical to assume that the same is true in tennis at the very top of the game.
You do realize there is no "conrete proof" about Armstrong being a cheat, right? He was never tested positive... and yet, even before this whole case, it was not "extremely cynical" to assume he was doping. Pretty much everyone following cycling knew it.

For all of those who think the sport is perfectly clean: what do we have to lose with more testing? The only thing I can think of is "money", but surely there is money enough for that. Cycling is a much smaller sport and they are testing about 100 times more out of competition.

Another question for you, who think this is all "conspiracy theory": why would a tennis player NOT dope? There are benefits to be gained, and the chance of getting caught if doing it right is literally zero. The only reason I can think of for not doping is to think every single top tennis player is a gentleman who believes in sportsmanship and fairness.
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