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Old 12-05-2012, 03:22 PM   #31
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
Litotes I wondered how you've got only 560 weeks for Connors in top-3 and 397 consecutive weeks :
I have 595 weeks personally with 507 consecutive from the 3rd of june 1974 to the 20th of february 1984.

When did he fall out of top-3 in that period in your eyes ?

It also seems that you had infos about Lendl's ranking during 1980 and 1981 which are not in Lendl's ranking history on the ATP website : can you tell me these informations ?
I understand your curiosity, and I regret to say I have no information you have not already seen about Connors. My opening post got all its numbers from Wikipedia unless stated otherwise (wiki total in parenthesis after). At the time I made this stat, wiki claimed 560 and 397, without giving dates. Now wiki gives your 595 and 507, so I'm going to update my stat accordingly.

For Lendl see PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
I understand your curiosity, and I regret to say I have no information you have not already seen about Connors. My opening post got all its numbers from Wikipedia unless stated otherwise (wiki total in parenthesis after). At the time I made this stat, wiki claimed 560 and 397, without giving dates. Now wiki gives your 595 and 507, so I'm going to update my stat accordingly.

For Lendl see PM.
well I'm not the guy who corrected Wikipedia here but yes, you're right now it fits more my current research, but mostly important would be to know if the one who had written something else had other infos or not, typically the kind of topics which should be discussed on wikipedia, I have an account (duong70) but am not so much used to such discussions, I will try to see.

But for Connors it looks easier than for Lendl, that's true.

By the way, for Lendl, in my last research I changed him to 407 weeks in the top-2 rather than the 403 I had before, because after what we talked about in previous page, I assumed this time that McEnroe had fallen to number 3 after the US Open 1982 and then gone ahead of Lendl on the 1st of november after a series of very good tournaments in the end of the year. As for wikipedia's 409 instead of 407 it may be because of the end of 1981 : the ATP gives Lendl as number 2 on the 11th of january 1982 but I don't know how it happened in the end of 1981 between him and Borg, that's one of my big question marks and the ATP gives no info in Borg's ranking history between mid-1981 and the beginning of 1983 I will also look at what you said in your PM
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
well I'm not the guy who corrected Wikipedia here but yes, you're right now it fits more my current research, but mostly important would be to know if the one who had written something else had other infos or not, typically the kind of topics which should be discussed on wikipedia, I have an account (duong70) but am not so much used to such discussions, I will try to see.

But for Connors it looks easier than for Lendl, that's true.

By the way, for Lendl, in my last research I changed him to 407 weeks in the top-2 rather than the 403 I had before, because after what we talked about in previous page, I assumed this time that McEnroe had fallen to number 3 after the US Open 1982 and then gone ahead of Lendl on the 1st of november after a series of very good tournaments in the end of the year. As for wikipedia's 409 instead of 407 it may be because of the end of 1981 : the ATP gives Lendl as number 2 on the 11th of january 1982 but I don't know how it happened in the end of 1981 between him and Borg, that's one of my big question marks and the ATP gives no info in Borg's ranking history between mid-1981 and the beginning of 1983 I will also look at what you said in your PM
I didn't mean to imply what you were - although it wouldn't really have surprised me. I have a wiki account too, by the way (same name), but I have never edited tennis stats there. I considered going in to correct Sampras' faulty consecutive top-5 weeks total but I didn't, and now someone else has done it for me.

Can really the difference between 407 and 409 be the off season? Wouldn't that be more than two weeks?
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:28 PM   #34
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
I didn't mean to imply what you were - although it wouldn't really have surprised me. I have a wiki account too, by the way (same name), but I have never edited tennis stats there. I considered going in to correct Sampras' faulty consecutive top-5 weeks total but I didn't, and now someone else has done it for me.
it's easy to make corrections on wikipedia, anyway the guy who made the last correction had the same info as me, but it doesn't mean that the previous one didn't have good infos, that's what I have to look for

Personally I only corrected things which were more certain like the win-loss ratio by some players in one year, also one info about Yannick Noah having won Wimbledon in the juniors which I had already read in the press, and which actually after my checkings on the ITF and Wimbledon's website happened to be a pure legend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
Can really the difference between 407 and 409 be the off season? Wouldn't that be more than two weeks?
it's possible as players played in december in that time and Lendl had lost early in previous year's Australian open (labelled as "1980's Australian open") which ended on the 4th of january 1981 (Lendl didn't play the Australian open in the end of 1981), and he might have played previous weeks that same year in Australia.

Besides, the "year-end-rankings" table I had got from Steveg's website gave Lendl as 1981 year-end number 2 and Borg number 4. Remains to be seen when was the year-end for them : supposedly after the Australian open 1981 which ended on the 3rd of january ? (it would be only one week-difference in that case )

Anyway, in that time, the formula for the ATP rankings was more complicated than now and sometimes some results had very counter-intuitive effects as a matter of averages, bonus points for wins against top-players, calculating not every week ...
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:26 AM   #35
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
I understand your curiosity, and I regret to say I have no information you have not already seen about Connors. My opening post got all its numbers from Wikipedia unless stated otherwise (wiki total in parenthesis after). At the time I made this stat, wiki claimed 560 and 397, without giving dates. Now wiki gives your 595 and 507, so I'm going to update my stat accordingly.

For Lendl see PM.
well, I tried to see the sources for that wikipedia page by looking at its history and I had the impression that a contributor named "Krivo4457" (isn't he by coincidence an MTF contributor ? it would help ) had been a major source between july and september 2012 and especially a source for some numbers which I can't get precisely (the 560 weeks for Connors in the top-3 and 409 weeks for Lendl in the top-2), and also referred to an "ATP media guide" for that, then I tried to ask him/her questions on his/her "talk" page :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_ta...gs_before_1984

we will see if this contributor will bring me infos : it's really a pity that the ATP can't just give more infos about these years' rankings on its "normal" rankings pages

at the moment, 409 weeks for Lendl in the top-2 and 595 weeks in the top-3 for Connors look reasonable like on the current situation of the wikipedia page.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:57 PM   #36
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:07 AM   #37
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

400 weeks in top 2!!!
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:49 PM   #38
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

Today Fed improved a couple of records. This is the 27th time he has ever played in a HC slam MD, and all 27 times he has reached at least the R3. 14 times in a row from the start is not just a record for the AO, but for any slam. Connors has 17 USOs R3 or better in a row, but not from the start - it was his 4th to his 20th.

He is also 49-0 in R2 for his career. This is not only a record for R2, but for any round.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

For weeks in top-2 ... Fed has now guaranteed :

- top-2 until the end of Dubai, that is 411 weeks (from further estimations I made, the "reality" for Lendl might be near to 420 then it would be good to do even better for Fed)

- top-3 until the end of Indian Wells as well, that is 500 weeks (from my estimations, both Connors and Lendl might be around 530 weeks)

- top-4 until the end of Miami, that is 512 weeks (Connors around 660)

- top-5 until the end of Monte-Carlo, that is 532 (Connors around 700)

Last edited by duong : 01-21-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:03 PM   #41
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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Old 01-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

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- top-2 until the end of Indian Wells, that is 413 weeks (from further estimations I made, the "reality" for Lendl might be near to 420 then it would be good to do even better for Fed)
I made a mistake : top-2 is guaranteed only until the end of Dubai at the moment, that is 411 weeks, not 413, but it will be guaranteed until the end of Indian Wells if he defeats Tsonga.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:02 AM   #43
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

This week, Federer tied Lendl, chasing one of his few remaining sequence records, consecutive weeks in the top four. He is tied for second with Lendl at 501 consecutive weeks in the top 4.

Next week, Federer ties Lendl for total weeks in the top 2 at 409 weeks. He will surpass Lendl for consecutive weeks in the top 4, at 502, to take 2nd on the list behind Connors.

Two weeks from now, Federer will surpass Lendl for total weeks in the top 2 at 410 weeks. He will tie Lendl at 524 total weeks in the top 5.

Three weeks from now, Federer will tie Lendl at 524 consecutive weeks in the top 5. He will surpass Lendl at 525 total weeks in the top 5.

Four weeks from now, Federer will tie Lendl for total weeks in the top 3 at 499. He will surpass Lendl at 526 total weeks in the top 5.

Five weeks from now, he will tie Lendl for total weeks in the top 4 at 505 weeks. He will surpass Lendl for total weeks in the top 3 at 500 weeks.

Six weeks from now, Federer will surpass Lendl for total weeks in the top 4 at 506 weeks.

Every week from this week for the next 6 weeks, Federer will either surpass a Lendl record or match a Lendl record. Federer, after this week, will have the longest peak at world number one and number 2 of any player ever in the history of Tennis.

He is still about 2 and 3 years behind Connors, for top 3; top 4-5 respectively. So his career length is the best in terms of peak, ever, but he still has a long way to go to have the same career path as Connors.

After this 6 week stretch where he surpasses 6 of Lendl's marks, what is left?

1. Federer is not yet in the top 5 for total weeks in the top 10. Becker has 576 weeks in the top 10, Federer 547. Federer needs just 29 weeks to pass Becker, and likely has another 40. He is very close to passing Sampras at 586 weeks, which is the last Sampras record he hasn't passed or equalled.

Next year would be Lendl's record with only Agassi and Connors further on.

So after this spate here- we'd have to wait half the year before it would become pertinent again. After passing 6 records in 5 weeks.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

Honestly, considering how very little the ATP has displayed about the rankings in the early 80s (in some years they only displayed one ranking in the year), I wouldn't consider the "weeks records" displayed on Wikipedia, which are all actually made from that source, as really relevant for Lendl and Connors (and also for Borg, McEnroe or Vilas)

... until one day, the ATP displays all of the rankings from that period which they did calculate (according to Slasher, they did calculate rankings on a nearly weekly basis in that period already) but didn't display.

Besides, the rankings in that period, and especially in the 70s for Connors (and Borg and Vilas), were heavily contested,

then I made my own rough estimates as well.

Fed has the clear record for weeks at number 1, can now be considered to be roughly tying Lendl's record for weeks in the top-2 (keeping the number 2 for longer during clay season would not only help Fed to avoid Djokovic in semis but also help him to make a very clear and undeniable mark for that stat),

and now I think his goal should be about staying as long as possible in top-4, as Jimmy Connors did regularly until 34 years old and a few months, and even a few weeks until 36.

Staying in top-4 is also of course very important for slam draws and then to help to prolonge Fed's carreer, that's why it's a very important goal imo to walk on those Connors' prints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
For weeks in top-2 ... Fed has now guaranteed :

- top-2 until the end of Dubai, that is 411 weeks (from further estimations I made, the "reality" for Lendl might be near to 420 then it would be good to do even better for Fed)

- top-3 until the end of Indian Wells as well, that is 500 weeks (from my estimations, both Connors and Lendl might be around 530 weeks)

- top-4 until the end of Miami, that is 512 weeks (Connors around 660)

- top-5 until the end of Monte-Carlo, that is 532 (Connors around 700)
updates : Fed has now guaranteed :

- top-2 until the end of Indian Wells, that is 413 weeks (from further estimations I made, the "reality" for Lendl might be near to 420 then it would be good to do even better for Fed)

- top-3 until the end of Miami, that is 502 weeks (from my estimations, both Connors and Lendl might be around 530 weeks "in reality" even though Wikipedia wrote Connors at nearly 600 weeks)

- top-4 until the end of Madrid, that is 518 weeks (Connors around 660)

- top-5 until the end of Roma, that is 536 (Connors around 700)

Last edited by duong : 02-06-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #45
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Default Re: Fed stats - with most weeks in top-2, 3, 5 and 10

Quote:
Honestly, considering how very little the ATP has displayed about the rankings in the early 80s (in some years they only displayed one ranking in the year), I wouldn't consider the "weeks records" displayed on Wikipedia, which are all actually made from that source, as really relevant for Lendl and Connors (and also for Borg, McEnroe or Vilas)
Agreed, but, here's the problem. They used a 2 year ranking back then. Connors benefited from two things - one, that the 2 year ranking didn't come into place until he came on the scene (as well as being the tail end of the weakest era in Tennis history from players born (1947-1951). This helped get Connors to number 1 in the first place in 1973. Since it was a 2 year ranking, once Connors was there - it was very difficult for him to fall or drop. This is especially pertinent given the consecutive weeks at number one record, something that Federer has thankfully smashed.

Two, not having week to week rankings, and having a 2 year ranking, actually benefits the players of the era more than they do now, especially for consecutive weeks records. This is why it doesn't seem right to add weeks just to put the total off for Federer, because he's doing something they never had to do in an era without week to week rankings. Their records are already inflated by these numbers.

Three, what's the source behind 520? We have to go on the best sources we do have, which is the ATP. We can try to cobble together 'post-facto' rankings based on how we understand the tour today- but this causes problems. The players back then didn't play to this type of schedule. They didn't play all the Grand slams. They didn't worry about the week to week rankings, because they didn't matter. They didn't have to worry about the point value of specific tournaments, or play in the required tournaments the way that they have to do so now. This is why I was hoping that Federer would be able to break all these records by a much more stringent standard (sadly Murray already stopped him for consecutive weeks at number 3), where he remains behind Connors and Lendl. This would remove most of the uncertainty surrounding this period, as we would have a much more firmer record basis in Federer's accomplishment. This is why I hope he does manage to make it to Rio - and play at a strong level until then. Once he seals the weeks at 2, I consider him to be 'era immune', since there's nobody coming up who is likely to challenge him. It's all based on his level of play.

Quote:
and now I think his goal should be about staying as long as possible in top-4, as Jimmy Connors did regularly until 34 years old and a few months, and even a few weeks until 36.
IMO, most of the pressure is off. He has the weeks at 1 (which is a difficult record). He has consecutive weeks at 2 already, and is just 2 weeks away from total weeks at number 2. You've got him down for 413, just 7 shy of your total for Lendl. This isn't a consecutive record, so he can dip and pick it up again. But, given that he owns Wimbledon, it would be easiest for him to keep this lead for as long as possible, and then not have to worry about 1 or 2 anymore.

IMO, I can see Fed being quite happy to stay at 2, or 3 or 4 for however long he wants to play, because he's in better shape overall than the young guys and is more consistant. It suits his game and playing style. The only thing that gets in the way is if Murray or Djokovic goes on a run - Djokovic's dominance now helps him - something we wouldn't and couldn't have said a year ago. Now, it does. He plays well as he usually does this part of the season, he'll solidify this for awhile and then not ever have to worry about it again.
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