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Old 01-15-2013, 08:08 PM   #106
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by pierricbross View Post
I bet you take the French 'all-spanish in every sport are doping' mantra seriously.
No. I believe blaming only the Spaniards is a mistake. A lot of French sportsmen were caught, too. But I do believe France has done more to struggle against doping than most countries.

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
Well now, this sounds VERY different.

Before: tons of evidence.

After: there is some evidence depending on what we think evidence might be and you feel some of it to be true based on your own speculation.

Gee, that sounds rock solid.
Well, your way of cutting bits of what I say is not rock solid, either. I've already apologized for exaggerating about "tons of evidence". I was getting excited about the debate and not paying enough attention to the words I was using. But I've always made it clear that these were speculations, although based on what I have seen about cycling, and what I have read about tennis, too.

Anyway, the only thing I can tell you, I guess, is "we'll see in 10 years". Until then it will always be the optimists vs the pessimists (aka conspirationists).
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:12 PM   #107
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
This thread should be specifically about Rochus' statements. I think all other valid "doping in tennis" conversation should go in the already existing MTF main doping thread. Most of the points being made here have been made in that thread repeatedly. This post can also go there.

The biggest problem today is that the sports organizations that are responsible and highly motivated to promote their own sport and athletes, are also responsible for managing the anti-doping testing protocols, UCI for cycling, ITF for tennis, etc. It is a clear conflict of interest, and these organizations should never have been permitted to run the anti-doping show from the start. But which sports authority or organization would allow an outside, independent, agency to run the anti-doping show in their sport, especially with the vast amount of money involved, unless they are required or mandated by a higher authority to do so?

There are solutions, but they need to be discussed and mandated at a higher level, such as WADA, where they will have power over each sport.

For sports where there is international competition such as tennis, I would suggest that the independent agency or agencies (perhaps WADA or some subsidiary) that would be in charge of the anti-doping controls be given power of testing and perhaps just as important, power of investigation such as what USADA had and executed in the Armstrong matter. The USADA has this power by virtue of its governmental authority. This means that the independent agency or agencies would have to go to each government where investigation is necessary and get the necessary authority of investigative power.

In countries that have agencies that already have this power, such as the USADA, as long as those agencies are clearly independent of the sports whose anti-doping activities they are policing, perhaps those agencies might be designated as an authoritative subsidiary of a central anti-doping control agency. However, some may say that a country's own agency might protect its own athletes, so perhaps there need to be "world" representatives within each authorized government agency to ensure there is as little corruption as possible. Even though it may be complex, I'm sure there are many with ideas of how to properly handle anti-doping management, from WADA, to former dopers and facilitators, to former heads of anti-doping controls, like Richard Ings. Funding shouldn't be too difficult. The amount tennis currently allocates is ridiculously low considering its revenues compared to cycling. Events should be required to contribute x% of their revenue as needed to the anti-doping agencies.

As long as the anti-doping control responsibility remains in the hands of the sport's organizations or authorities, suspicion is natural. With the current weak testing regimen in tennis, and risk vs. reward, one should suspect that various amounts of doping is rampant, only limited by a player's resources. Suspicion should be high that any notable positive test incidents are being covered up to "protect the sport" given the current lack of transparency.

Accusations are difficult to prove when there is no evidence being provided. But as we learned from Armstrong, the fact that a player or players have no public positive tests does not mean that doping does not exist. What we do know is that the current environment in tennis is such where there are clear benefits to doping, sufficient and proper out of competition testing does not exist, in-competition testing is insufficient (is likely not to catch someone that is micro-dosing), is poorly funded, and the reward currently outweighs the risk of being caught.

Respectfully,
masterclass
Yes, I think maybe government could be the answer. But I thought if I said that, I would be accused of behaving like a typical "French" woman

I'm not sure government could be relied on to be "independent" either, but it would certainly be much better than the situation you've described (clear conflicts of interest).
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:13 PM   #108
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
I have seen that site many, many times as it is virtually the ONLY site ever mentioned. and I am sure you know that there is nothing in those quotes remotely like evidence, right?

Not one first hand account of anything seen etc. So what you have are a few more speculative quotes compiled.
We have no evidence players are doping.
We do have evidence that the doping controls are a big joke, we do have evidence that it's very easy to dope. We do have evidence that the ITF is keeping information away from us that might seem damaging - like the list of the out of competition tests that was online at one point but later removed. I saw it, others here saw it too. Most top players had missed tests. The evidence is out there, but it's been taken offline so we can't post a link to show it to you.

So the likelihood that doping is happening is quite high.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:15 PM   #109
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
I have seen that site many, many times as it is virtually the ONLY site ever mentioned. and I am sure you know that there is nothing in those quotes remotely like evidence, right?

Not one first hand account of anything seen etc. So what you have are a few more speculative quotes compiled most of which guess at there being the occasional instance or isolated case.
If i had anything remotely close to evidence some guys would be in jail already

Anyways, your point is what exactly? - Stop talking about doping in sports, even if many ex and actual players/coaches suggest it exists?

I'm not accusing anyone in particular. I have doubts about guys who had overnight transformations. Guess why the AO is the tournament that provided the most surprise finalists ever - maybe because it's right after the off season, which equals out the players' level? Maybe..

I am personally on a quest to recognize better who and when, without accusing them. I might have given up betting for a while, but it's never been definite (Klizan underdog against Brands? Augut - Melzer 50-50? is there smth i miss? yes, probably and that's what i want to know.)
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:19 PM   #110
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
If i had anything remotely close to evidence some guys would be in jail already

Anyways, your point is what exactly? - Stop talking about doping in sports, even if many ex and actual players/coaches suggest it exists?
My point is it is very easy to say everyone does X or the players I don't like do Y. In reality, the Rochus quote is very rare indeed.

Even others who speak about doping on the site referenced are generally more cautious and seem to think it is isolated.

The claims here are way beyond what little is known.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:20 PM   #111
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Tribalfusion - are these quotes enough to consider them as "tons"? I believe it's quite a lot, from all kinds of players.
If I was a famous tennis personality, I would also say "We know that there are some who do, doping is in all sports and we just have to do whatever we can to minimise it."

Then, my name would end up on that website, and some guy in his house will jump on it and say 'MORE PROOF THAT DOPING IS WIDESPREAD, ITF TESTS COVERED UP AND DON'T WORK, HAPPENS ALL THE TIME." When in reality I just meant, it's highly unlikely no-one does, some have to, like some do in every single sport ever. That doesn't mean it's as widespread as it is/was in Cycling, Baseball, and Swimming.

Even if they tested 50/50 blood and urine and doubled the tests, and say this doubled the amount of people who got caught (which would still mean less than 10 players most years, the vast majority of which being futures/challengers players), the guys who currently think everyone dopes will still think that everyone dopes. That's why it's annoying to see professional players bring the sport down with absolutely no evidence, we already have the dissenting <1% of online fans for that, doing it where they can't hurt anyone.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:25 PM   #112
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
My point is it is very easy to say everyone does X or the players I don't like do Y. In reality, the Rochus quote is very rare indeed.

Even others who speak about doping on the site referenced are generally more cautious and seem to think it is isolated.

The claims here are way beyond what little is known.
I wouldn't point fingers and Rochus' suggestions about Soderling's situation are laughable i think. Retiring after winning Bastad or whatever is just funny, or doubting the guy's illness, which is serious enough.

But denying everything in general is what the court should do and the press + blogs + forums should be the ones asking questions.

The fact that there is even the slightest lack of transparency in doping control is enough for a big fuss, because it suggests fraud. And we have little to no knowledge of how things are actually happening, which is enough reasons for concern i think.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:29 PM   #113
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

That's absurd his unfounded accusations on nadal and soderling. This guy is a nobody.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:32 PM   #114
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by pierricbross View Post
If I was a famous tennis personality, I would also say "We know that there are some who do, doping is in all sports and we just have to do whatever we can to minimise it."

Then, my name would end up on that website, and some guy in his house will jump on it and say 'MORE PROOF THAT DOPING IS WIDESPREAD, ITF TESTS COVERED UP AND DON'T WORK, HAPPENS ALL THE TIME." When in reality I just meant, it's highly unlikely no-one does, some have to, like some do in every single sport ever. That doesn't mean it's as widespread as it is/was in Cycling, Baseball, and Swimming.

Even if they tested 50/50 blood and urine and doubled the tests, and say this doubled the amount of people who got caught (which would still mean less than 10 players most years, the vast majority of which being futures/challengers players), the guys who currently think everyone dopes will still think that everyone dopes. That's why it's annoying to see professional players bring the sport down with absolutely no evidence, we already have the dissenting <1% of online fans for that, doing it where they can't hurt anyone.
That's one point of view.

Another one is - i'm a pro and i see half my teammates from DC injecting drugs in their system, offering me the same and progressing in tennis like crazy.

What would i say? - yes, there certainly are people doing it in tennis, just as everywhere and i would be glad to have more control.

What else could i say?

In our case i'm personally not saying it is widespread as we need to define this word first. If we say 10% of top 300 - does it mean widespread? If so then that's what i claim.

But if we say 30% - no, it's not widespread.

I don't even care if it is 10 players or 3. All i personally want is a better and more transparent control system, with a control system to control the system and one more time.

Then give them 1 year free if you want and tell them that anyone caught after will be banned for life and start the real testing.

Until then it's certain that some guys are taking advantage and others are taken advantage of. Who is who - we don't know.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:32 PM   #115
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
philosophicalarf has already mentioned several times about how testing is basically nonexistent for tennis players, and that they are in fact, very easy to bypass.

This is what people can work with:

1. Virtually nothing is being done about doping in tennis.

2. In sports with more strict anti-doping measures, doping is still common.

3. There is no reason for tennis players to not dope after considering the lack of testing.

Basically, common sense dictates that there is a potentially significant problem with doping and this goes far beyond being just a mere conspiracy theory.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:33 PM   #116
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

its interesting i'll say that. But why is this only being mentioned now? is he a disgruntled lance armstrong fan
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:37 PM   #117
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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its interesting i'll say that. But why is this only being mentioned now? is he a disgruntled lance armstrong fan
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blog...ut-doping.html

it's not just said now. No one has any urge or motivation saying anything about it, so it's only when a journalist catches an ex player in speaking mode.

Tell them they'd go to jail for 5 years if they obstruct investigations by not sharing their knowledge and things will get unfolded very fast.

Until then we'll hope that some journalist will catch some ex player drunk somewhere and the latter would drop some bomb, which could be veryfied.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:38 PM   #118
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by MalwareDie View Post
philosophicalarf has already mentioned several times about how testing is basically nonexistent for tennis players, and that they are in fact, very easy to bypass.

This is what people can work with:

1. Virtually nothing is being done about doping in tennis.

2. In sports with more strict anti-doping measures, doping is still common.

3. There is no reason for tennis players to not dope after considering the lack of testing.

Basically, common sense dictates that there is a potentially significant problem with doping and this goes far beyond being just a mere conspiracy theory.
spot on. could also add

4. Potential to become set for life financially, with almost no risk of getting caught. (unless you carry your goods across a border or something retarded like that)

5. Tennis has become extremely demanding physically, so its obvious that a lot can be gained.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:38 PM   #119
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

I'm fine with people speaking up about problems with doping in tennis and what more needs to be done, even when the ITF/ATP etc are not comfortable with it. But to bring up specific players names without any real evidence, and say doping should be made legal is just stupid.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:45 PM   #120
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Serverer View Post

5. Tennis has become extremely demanding physically, so its obvious that a lot can be gained.
Number 5 is true and you know that Roger led the way with that right? So if all we need is hearsay, how would you feel if I told you I know some former pros and trainers who think that Roger is doping because no one can do X Y and Z like he does and they figure he must be doping.


Somehow I think your enthusiasm for guilty until proven innocent would subside very quickly.
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