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Old 01-15-2013, 06:24 PM   #46
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Punky View Post
no one is blaming a player, we are talking in general what the ATP should do if they will find out about a doping player.

i think the only thing that will makr everyone more relax is if the ATP will publish Regularly How many times each player was tested, where, after what tournament and what was the result.

And that an Independent body that will be responsible for this.
that's the whole key and that's one thing hard to achieve because there needs to be financing for this body. It certainly costs a lot of money.

It can't be linked with governments because it's an international thing, so who to sponsor this operation?

Now even if there is an independent sponsor like f.e. the World Health Organization, it's still a million per year against hundreds of them on the other side, if not billions.

This is the hardest part to achieve.

Another hard thing to achieve is control over the TAs. Even if the control organ is almost fully fair and independent, they could make their gimmicks with the TAs, which if caught couldn't get much of a penalty as what they do is not a crime per se. It's not a police matter most of the time (except for the docs who transport and sell the substances).
Especially the big TAs from GS countries, Spain, Germany, Russia - they are often more powerful than ATP itself, they have huge tennis networks that need to stay healthy (thousands of players at all levels), they have solid connections with sponsors, media, sometimes governments, etc. so it's another problem to keep those under control as well.

Sometimes when this is a national policy it's really hard to go against.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:27 PM   #47
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
well, he admitted about drugs that didn't help him win anything, on the contrary.

It just shows up the wholes (wanted or just unpached by negligence) there are in the system. ATP would claim negligence in this case, while it's clear that such a thing would hardly happen by chance.

They will throw away the Puertas and Kutrovkys to pretend a statement, but in the higher levels it's not that easy. Also because admitting such a thing or punishing it you punish yourself mostly and lose tons of money, so it's a hard call when a guy who is a playing legend and you've trusted him for years, suddenly gets caught.
i cant see a difference between Lance Armstrong and Andre Agassi? i cant see any difference - both dopers

so Agassi said it didnt help him win anything...ya right i believe him now
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #48
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Yeah all that crystal meth really helped him rack up the titles.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:40 PM   #49
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

So one player (who never got anywhere close to the top) says players are doping.

Many other players ROUTINELY say there isn't any doping that they know of and somehow the one guy has more weight than the many who say there isn't any.

I would love to see Soderling run into Rochus sometime soon.

This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:43 PM   #50
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Punky View Post
I can not believe that there is drugs in tennis, its really hard for me to things any player, top or not is doing it but like u said this is the real world.

i will have to go with Innocent until proven guilty.

if there is drugs and a chain then its a matter of time until it will be broke.

until then..i will live in Disney
i agree with you and it's perhaps the right thing to do.

All speculations are based overall on hypothetical situations, which might be happening or not.

Though the fact that this has been entire nations' policy for political reasons (pretty much all communist countries in the past DDR, USSR, Bulgaria, etc. and in their case they've had solid opponents from the capitalist part of the world, which wasn't competing on tomatoes as well... Back then it was the battle for ideological win and sports was probably the best PR possible. Now it's the crisis, recession, many countries need average Joe and the media to be happy about smth and take his eyes off the misery and unemployment a bit. At the same time it's the cheapest and easiest thing to organize - one friendly pharmaceutical producer, some governmental programs for high level sports and you have it.), the fact about what happened in cycling, the Agassi situation - too many hints that smth not right is happening.

Of course it probably is very limited and the ATP is actually trying to cut it down as much as possible, but from one point ahead their product becomes in danger and their job is to actually take decisions to make it better, so frauds and gimmicks when someone too important would be caught and take him under the light would be more dangerous for the sport than keeping it secret are actually a must for them, so either no top player has ever been caught with doping (Agassi...) or they have done this already.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:43 PM   #51
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
So one player (who never got anywhere close to the top) says players are doping.

Many other players ROUTINELY say there isn't any doping that they know of and somehow the one guy has more weight than the many who say there isn't any.

I would love to see Soderling run into Rochus sometime soon.

This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
whereas Lance Armstrong is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset can uncover a lot of hidden dirt.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:46 PM   #52
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
So one player (who never got anywhere close to the top) says players are doping.

Many other players ROUTINELY say there isn't any doping that they know of and somehow the one guy has more weight than the many who say there isn't any.

I would love to see Soderling run into Rochus sometime soon.

This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
Just because the ITF wants to pretend everything is clean doesnt make it true. People dope in every other sport so why should Tennis be any better?
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #53
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Everyone is blames everyone of doping without naming names, how much of this is really true and how much is due to jealousy of the other player?

i cant believe any of the top players is doping just cant.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #54
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by VamosRafaNadal View Post
We'll, thanks a lot for this information. I knew the protocol to do doping controls (I described it in my first message), that I think that is correct (as I said before), but I didn't know that the number of doping controls a year was as little as you say. So you're right: it will be great to have more doping controls (and more taking blood samples). I think that if some player avoids 3 doping controls he has to be one year off courts.

It is positive to know these details, as I thought that more doping controls were done. Regards.
3?
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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i cant see a difference between Lance Armstrong and Andre Agassi? i cant see any difference - both dopers

so Agassi said it didnt help him win anything...ya right i believe him now
Maybe my info is short, but as far as i know Agassi confessed about being a drug addict on crystal meth, which isn't helping his play tennis for sure.

On the other hand we've seen guys (in other sports) having big trouble with marijuana in the blood, others with minuscule amounts of coke...so anykind of drug is actually forbidden, hence the Agassi case has been either neglected or just been shut down for the sake of tennis' popularity and image.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:49 PM   #56
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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this is sad..

well i hope it will be a matter of ime until they will start publish the Results, i would like to know who, when and how much.

about the Organization who will monitor all, how about Each athlete will be checked by a different until in other countrys, lets say each Testing will be done by another country?
It will become like the wild cards distribution - you give me one for RG, i give you one for AO.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:49 PM   #57
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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whereas Lance Armstrong is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset can uncover a lot of hidden dirt.
Except almost every cyclist said Armstrong and almost every other cyclist was doping and we had to hear something about it every major event until eventually actual evidence was gathered. In tennis you have only a few tennis players, none of them any good, and we rarely hear about it. I think Serena Williams' panic room farce was the last time doping was bought up seriously and by people who weren't terrible.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:51 PM   #58
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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i cant see a difference between Lance Armstrong and Andre Agassi? i cant see any difference - both dopers

so Agassi said it didnt help him win anything...ya right i believe him now
You can't see the difference between a class A drug and PED's?
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:51 PM   #59
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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So one player (who never got anywhere close to the top) says players are doping.

Many other players ROUTINELY say there isn't any doping that they know of and somehow the one guy has more weight than the many who say there isn't any.

I would love to see Soderling run into Rochus sometime soon.

This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
Would you testify if you are 25, top 30 and depend on ATP to make a good career and money?

Of course anyone in similar position would say they have no idea about that, because for one thing they couldn't prove it and for the other they would have to start college...
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:52 PM   #60
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
True.

But lest it be thought this is all conspiracy, here are the number of out of competition blood tests done in tennis....

2011: 21
2010: 10
2009: 0
2008: 0


Source: http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp


Just for clarity, this is the total number of tests done for all players in the entire world of top level professional tennis. Men and women, singles and doubles, main tour, challengers/itf level, Davis Cup, and some juniors/wheelchair also.

All those, and they did 31 blood tests in four years. That's about as many as a single top cyclist gets in a single year.


That is the difference between a sport that wants to eradicate doping, and one that clearly has no intention of even looking.

Last edited by philosophicalarf : 01-15-2013 at 06:59 PM.
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