Where are the teenagers ? (Top 100 getting older and older) - Page 24 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: Are players peaking at older ages in tennis now than in the past?

Yes 72 71.29%
No 22 21.78%
Don't know / don't care 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:38 PM   #346
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

I never said that the older players had an advantage in that way, its more that they no longer have much of a disadvantage physically, due to the way sports science works these days.

Since they are usually better than the younger guys technically and tactically, they tend to win out.

Also on Murray I don't really know, its just he looked more like an adult when his success started (by success I really mean his breakthrough at the us open in 08), whereas before he had this gangly teenage look about him.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:43 PM   #347
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Quote:
Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
I never said that the older players had an advantage in that way, its more that they no longer have much of a disadvantage physically, due to the way sports science works these days.

Since they are usually better than the younger guys technically and tactically, they tend to win out.
Please explain.

At the very best, they can achieve equal results in cardiovascular scores, such as those I've mentioned. However, in overall relevant elements of fitness, they should be at a disadvantage in agility, flexibility and potentially strength and power due to loss in flexibility and the possibility of injury. So overall, there is no advantage at all to being an older tennis player, physically speaking.

Regarding Murray, that's generally what happens when one gains muscle mass and loses fat. I've seen it happen 1000 times.

He must've went from a weedy 75kg to around 82kg. It's what we call "noob gains" in the bodybuilding circle. This along with the addition of scruffy facial hair can't hurt.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:47 PM   #348
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Please explain.

At the very best, they can achieve equal results in cardiovascular scores, such as those I've mentioned. However, in overall relevant elements of fitness, they should be at a disadvantage in agility, flexibility and potentially strength and power due to loss in flexibility and the possibility of injury. So overall, there is no advantage at all to being an older tennis player, physically speaking.

Regarding Murray, that's generally what happens when one gains muscle mass and loses fat. I've seen it happen 1000 times.
Right, and that disadvantage is being lessened as athletes are finding more and more ways to prolong their physical peaks, recover from serious injuries, etc etc. My point is that advantage younger players used to have isn't as big anymore.

As for Murray, well you may well be right lol. I do agree with you that the younger generation could work a lot harder.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:00 PM   #349
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
Right, and that disadvantage is being lessened as athletes are finding more and more ways to prolong their physical peaks, recover from serious injuries, etc etc. My point is that advantage younger players used to have isn't as big anymore.

As for Murray, well you may well be right lol. I do agree with you that the younger generation could work a lot harder.
I'll concede that, to a point but the difference is nowhere near significant enough to counter the benefits of youth in regards to the large advantages it holds in other elements of physical fitness.

Today we have 3 players in their mid-twenties atop the rankings and I believe that when they're 'fit', they will surpass the general past-norm of players' standards in their early 30's but only because of their reliance and dedication to their physical fitness. You can't come to an accurate conclusion unless you set everyone on the exact same training regime, diet and lifestyle to conclude whether A has a more genetic advantage than B or C is only fitter than D because... etc.

I take Ferrer as a perfect example of a player who has continued to work hard physically and he's reaping the rewards. Ferrer is also an exception in the way that he has maintained much of his agility and I'd say all if not more speed horizontally. It's a credit to himself and those around him and a wake-up call to those youngsters who are happy enough collecting pay cheques and believing that their time will come (possibly through the departure of others) performing and training as they do currently.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:18 PM   #350
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Yes, Ferrer really is amazing. If I was still an aspiring tennis player like I was at 14 he'd be my idol tbh. Never used to like him but the way he has got better and better with age (considering his style of play) is incredible
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:18 PM   #351
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Murray maybe struggled to enter top 5 or to stay in top 10 at first, but he never struggled to stay in top 30 or 50, let alone top 250
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:26 PM   #352
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Yeah but lets face it though, Tomic, Dimitrov, Harrison etc just aren't a patch on the likes of Nadal, Djokovic, Murray or even Delpo. I fear that may play a bigger part of it than we pretend. The new generation is just kinda crap
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:28 PM   #353
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
Yes, Ferrer really is amazing. If I was still an aspiring tennis player like I was at 14 he'd be my idol tbh. Never used to like him but the way he has got better and better with age (considering his style of play) is incredible
The thing is, it's now impossible to analyse the change in Ferrer's physical attributes from the age of 20 to now because he most certainly had a different lifestyle, diet and training regime. One of the biggest problems in Sports Science is inconsistency, as such, where such in depth and prolonged analysis could potentially lead to new findings. It's of course unreasonable to assume we will be able to monitor an elite athlete's life for 10 years, or even 5, but it's something that would really, really intrigue me, especially in someone like Ferrer.

I've never really been a fan of Ferrer, but I have nothing but respect towards his professionalism. If only all players had this and young players took notice, we would have a more competitive tour albeit more mechanical. Either way, it should be inspiring for youngsters to note that despite being far from the most technically able player on tour, he has used his best assets to his advantage and in my opinion, probably reached his potential, with some luck along with way. (Court homogenisation)

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Murray maybe struggled to enter top 5 or to stay in top 10 at first, but he never struggled to stay in top 30 or 50, let alone top 250
I don't know if this is directed to me or not, as it's irrelevant as I was purely speaking on behalf of Murray's physical change.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:46 PM   #354
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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I don't know if this is directed to me or not, as it's irrelevant as I was purely speaking on behalf of Murray's physical change.
Nope, I meant that both Murray and Djokovic with plenty of physical/stamina issues were still way ahead of their today's counterparts.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:47 PM   #355
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

I think it's mainly a mental thing. First, being able to perform under the immense pressure now takes some time to get used to. Especially the top guys now play their best tennis on the big points. Most people need some experience before they are able to do this.

Second the tactical aspect in tennis has become much more important the last years. Young guys lack the experience to correctly change their tactic during a match, something that's really hard to do if you're playing yourself.

I think allowing a coach on the court would help a lot in this. However I'm still not sure what my opinion is on this point.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:55 PM   #356
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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I think it's mainly a mental thing. First, being able to perform under the immense pressure now takes some time to get used to. Especially the top guys now play their best tennis on the big points. Most people need some experience before they are able to do this.

Second the tactical aspect in tennis has become much more important the last years. Young guys lack the experience to correctly change their tactic during a match, something that's really hard to do if you're playing yourself.

I think allowing a coach on the court would help a lot in this. However I'm still not sure what my opinion is on this point.
No.

And are you saying the youngsters of 2000 would have struggled to perform better in this era?

It's simple, the talent pool is considerably weaker than in years past and the young players are physically and mentally inept.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:07 PM   #357
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

From what I read on this debate, I think that people should be careful that the debate is not so much youngsters (teens are mentioned here for instance) vs oldies (>=30 years old),

but rather youngsters vs players with an "average age" (24-28)

The phenomenon of youngsters failing to emerge is much more visible than any phenomenon of old players having more success nowadays. Statistically, players who are 30 years old or more still appear to quickly decline, even though it appears less visible at the present moment because there was a high number of very good players in Fed's generation, and also a relatively high number of players who managed to better use some important parts of their potential with time (Ferrer, Fish, Melzer, Benneteau, Lopez, Youzhny, even Federer are in that case).

I say that especially because of that comparison with cycling or marathon which has led to the argument of the endurance of >30-years old guys.

Like Burrow, I don't think it's relevant in tennis.

But ... the question remains whether a 24-year-old guy may be more endurant and solid than a youngster, both physically and mentally. Also knows his body better ... and maybe uses doping better, because, sorry, when one speaks of the undeniable improvement of the doctors and physios' watch in tennis, I can't help thinking of the possibility of doping either.

Especially, as far as solidity is concerned and as I said, I'm surprised by the number of youngsters who have had big injuries in recent years. I gave a list a few posts ago and that list appears to be very long to me.

Of course, in that "endurance", one can't help thinking as well of the "mental endurance", that is the ability and motivation to work hard and constantly, as some said. One can think that players when they get a little bit older may be harder at work, one can also think that youngsters nowadays are not brave enough.

PS : Burrow spoke of Kuerten : when Kuerten emerged, he was nearly 21 years old.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:11 PM   #358
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
From what I read on this debate, I think that people should be careful that the debate is not so much youngsters (teens are mentioned here for instance) vs oldies (>=30 years old),

but rather youngsters vs players with an "average age" (24-28)
Not sure. Players 24-28 are usually at their best and if they outperform younger ones, that's pretty much expected. However, people speak about stamina and endurance and then you have Haas and Stepanek who are both nearly 35 and doing much better than most if not all of 'youngsters'.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:15 PM   #359
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
From what I read on this debate, I think that people should be careful that the debate is not so much youngsters (teens are mentioned here for instance) vs oldies (>=30 years old),

but rather youngsters vs players with an "average age" (24-28)

The phenomenon of youngsters failing to emerge is much more visible than any phenomenon of old players having more success nowadays. Statistically, players who are 30 years old or more still appear to quickly decline, even though it appears less visible at the present moment because there was a high number of very good players in Fed's generation, and also a relatively high number of players who managed to better use some important parts of their potential with time (Ferrer, Fish, Melzer, Benneteau, Lopez, Youzhny, even Federer are in that case).

I say that especially because of that comparison with cycling or marathon which has led to the argument of the endurance of >30-years old guys.

Like Burrow, I don't think it's relevant in tennis.

But ... the question remains whether a 24-year-old guy may be more endurant and solid than a youngster, both physically and mentally. Also knows his body better ... and maybe uses doping better, because, sorry, when one speaks of the undeniable improvement of the doctors and physios' watch in tennis, I can't help thinking of the possibility of doping either.

Especially, as far as solidity is concerned and as I said, I'm surprised by the number of youngsters who have had big injuries in recent years. I gave a list a few posts ago and that list appears to be very long to me.

Of course, in that "endurance", one can't help thinking as well of the "mental endurance", that is the ability and motivation to work hard and constantly, as some said.

PS : Burrow spoke of Kuerten : when Kuerten emerged, he was already more than 20 years old.
Kuerten won Roland Garros at 20, so no.

And about the 24 year old vs. "youngster", carrying the potential to be more physically superior is also completely irrelevant. I'm not going to repeat myself, so I shall leave it at that.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:17 PM   #360
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by Taejin View Post
Not sure. Players 24-28 are usually at their best and if they outperform younger ones, that's pretty much expected.
yes, but the difference with the past situation is that the difference between players aged 24-28 and youngsters is bigger than in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taejin View Post
However, people speak about stamina and endurance and then you have Haas and Stepanek who are both nearly 35 and doing much better than most if not all of 'youngsters'.
they are marginal cases, and there have always been marginal cases like that, but I see that you associate stamina and endurance with oldies, which was precisely my concern in this debate which I mentioned in previous post.
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