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Old 12-29-2012, 04:26 PM   #61
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

It's probably because of that stupid new rule that they are going to try, no one wants to see it, so once the first quarter is over, things will be back to normal.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #62
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
From Nathii's list, yes, there are more southAmerican tournaments to disappear (also Moroccan) but it's also the period when there are most southAmerican challengers together with the end of the year, the rest of the year will be more in Europe and the USA, we'll see the situation there.
i think singapore and kazan are missing because these 2 cities hope they will be running wta championships

florianopolis is also getting ready for a wta tournament

nevertheless, it's still alarming

and latso, futures number also goes down this year for the record. anyway if all these "young players" were to travel from one 10K event to other 10K event for 4 yrs until they're ripe enough, they'd go bankrupt in no time

ofc challenger tour is needed, i don't know why people even question it. and it's prob also a thing of marketing, yes. in poland - szczecin, sopot, poznan, you wouldn't find a free place during the finals, many hundreds people watching them live
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:35 PM   #63
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Look at Benoit Paire. 23 and developing. All credit to match wins at the challenger level which last year he took to greater success on the ATP tour.
The highest ranked teenager is 263rd, he's 19yo ofc
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:15 PM   #64
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
i think singapore and kazan are missing because these 2 cities hope they will be running wta championships

florianopolis is also getting ready for a wta tournament

nevertheless, it's still alarming

and latso, futures number also goes down this year for the record. anyway if all these "young players" were to travel from one 10K event to other 10K event for 4 yrs until they're ripe enough, they'd go bankrupt in no time

ofc challenger tour is needed, i don't know why people even question it. and it's prob also a thing of marketing, yes. in poland - szczecin, sopot, poznan, you wouldn't find a free place during the finals, many hundreds people watching them live
You can play all year long in Turkey only (except for 3 weeks for the whole year!) 10K tournaments.

A player between top 300 and top 400 would average easily, minimum around 1200$ per month, which is the double of the average salary in Turkey.

The World's #365 has made 12.343,00$ at singles and 5.637,00$ in doubles, average of 1500$ per month.

His name is Enrique Lopez-Perez and he's 21yo.


I'd give a kidney to be his age and make this kind of money, have the possibility to make a profession of my hobby and have the possibility to make much more if i become good enough.



The young guys get help from their respective TF, they get help by sponsors and this is Only because of the potential! They haven't accomplished anything, they just get help for free for them to live up to the expectations.

If they do - they start making enough money to help themselves, if they don't - the money everyone invested is gone and they find a job, often as coaches.

So what's the deal here? We need to subsidize older players to make a decent living of the sport, even though they've never managed to prove to be good enough?

Devilder is 32yo, he's 204th and he's making 80K per season playing mainly Challengers.
Stephan Robert, 32yo, 272nd - 80 Grand

Do you think these guys deserve to win more than that? Is it for them to make more money or the young guys?

The answer is obvious and that's why more money is invested in Futures and less in Challengers.

And it's not even smth to worry about, as it's yet to be known if there would be less CH than last year, which is unlikely imo.

Anyways, it's always up to this - we have limited information and we like to do what average Joe does best - hate the administration, which he has no idea how it works and what it really does.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:58 PM   #65
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

you act like only young players play Futures. If you cut Challenger events where do you think devilder and robert will play?

Anyway, financially it's mostly the responsibility of local organisers to raise the cash. It's not just the ATP's job.

There are always businesses willing to sponsor local sporting events. It's about having the skill and passion to sell the product to them.

However, there are areas they could help. There could be some sort of hardship fund where established Challengers could apply for assistance if struggling to attract sponsors.

A fund of even 1 million euros could potentially save a dozen struggling events. We're not talking big money here. Prize money, some wages and equipment are the only real expenses.

Another area the ATP could help is by trying to attract a global sponsor or at least regional ones. To make this viable there would be some minimum requirements expected of tournaments as regards livescores, streaming, etc. 2012 was the first year every event (I think) even had a livescore.

That shows you how badly the tour has been neglected. (But according to the cranky Bulgarian, above we're just whinging for nothing).

Formally dividing the Challenger tour into some regional blocks might help. e.g. a company would be sold sponsorship of portion or all of east Asian swing. (An upcoming Asian sporting goods company for example might not be too concerned with having its name on a billboard in Ecuador.

You only have to look at the success stories of last year to see that the Challenger tour is underexposed to potential investors.

You could have tied Jerzy Janowicz down on a multi-year contract last year for pennies, whether it be clothing, shoes or a sleeve patch. This year he is signing deals with Peaugot. Klizan the same. And these guys were hot juniors. Not some secret fluke successes.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:17 PM   #66
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
You can play all year long in Turkey only (except for 3 weeks for the whole year!) 10K tournaments.

A player between top 300 and top 400 would average easily, minimum around 1200$ per month, which is the double of the average salary in Turkey.

The World's #365 has made 12.343,00$ at singles and 5.637,00$ in doubles, average of 1500$ per month.

His name is Enrique Lopez-Perez and he's 21yo.


I'd give a kidney to be his age and make this kind of money, have the possibility to make a profession of my hobby and have the possibility to make much more if i become good enough.



The young guys get help from their respective TF, they get help by sponsors and this is Only because of the potential! They haven't accomplished anything, they just get help for free for them to live up to the expectations.

If they do - they start making enough money to help themselves, if they don't - the money everyone invested is gone and they find a job, often as coaches.

So what's the deal here? We need to subsidize older players to make a decent living of the sport, even though they've never managed to prove to be good enough?

Devilder is 32yo, he's 204th and he's making 80K per season playing mainly Challengers.
Stephan Robert, 32yo, 272nd - 80 Grand

Do you think these guys deserve to win more than that? Is it for them to make more money or the young guys?

The answer is obvious and that's why more money is invested in Futures and less in Challengers.

And it's not even smth to worry about, as it's yet to be known if there would be less CH than last year, which is unlikely imo.

Anyways, it's always up to this - we have limited information and we like to do what average Joe does best - hate the administration, which he has no idea how it works and what it really does.
You are utterly clueless. You say you would like to be Lopez-Perez and making 15k a year, well, no you wouldn't unless you like losing money. Even if he is getting some help from his TF, he could still very well be losing money each year. 15k is absolutely nothing considering the expenses involved. And another thing you clearly don't understand is that only very few countries with wealthy federations can actually support many players. In addition, you act like getting sponsors is easy. Again, it's not. You obviously didn't read that recent article on Tennis Alternative about Guillermo Alcaide. He was top-200 at the end of 2010 but got injured and lost his sponsors while his family had no more money to support him, and he had to retire about a year after he was at his career high ranking. This was a possible future top-100 player from Spain that could not find the money from any source to continue his career.

As for guys like Robert and Devilder, you may not think they have their place, but they do. They are solid veterans that make up the challenger tour and provide the necessary experience for young players that are trying to make the jump to the ATP level. As for them making 80k, well again you somehow think this is a lot when it's not. A full year on the tour playing challengers and ATP qualies when you are flying a lot can easily cost 100k+

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Old 12-29-2012, 07:44 PM   #67
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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You are utterly clueless. You say you would like to be Lopez-Perez and making 15k a year, well, no you wouldn't unless you like losing money. Even if he is getting some help from his TF, he could still very well be losing money each year. 15k is absolutely nothing considering the expenses involved. And another thing you clearly don't understand is that only very few countries with wealthy federations can actually support many players. In addition, you act like getting sponsors is easy. Again, it's not. You obviously didn't read that recent article on Tennis Alternative about Guillermo Alcaide. He was top-200 at the end of 2010 but got injured and lost his sponsors while his family had no more money to support him, and he had to retire about a year after he was at his career high ranking. This was a possible future top-100 player from Spain that could not find the money from any source to continue his career.

As for guys like Robert and Devilder, you may not think they have their place, but they do. They are solid veterans that make up the challenger tour and provide the necessary experience for young players that are trying to make the jump to the ATP level. As for them making 80k, well again you somehow think this is a lot when it's not. A full year on the tour playing challengers and ATP qualies when you are flying a lot can easily cost 100k+
I read the Alcaide story and there is nothing one can do against injuries. What's the CH tour problem with Alcaide's situation?

A solid top 100? He went up to 195th in 2010 and the following 2011 was a disaster taking him back to 388th. That's not a solid top 100 at 25.

Maybe he was lazy or tired of it all, maybe he wasn't mentally strong enough, maybe he was a gambler - why would a guy's sad tennis career be always the fault of someone else?

I know Robert and Devilder have their places in tennis and i'm not saying they should go away or something. But this is the level of guys playing CH and they make their living well enough for the quality they produce.

I agree that some mugs in football shouldn't make the 300-500K per season they make, but i disagree that players like Robert and Devilder should make much more than what they make.

And 80K per season is perfectly OK for these guys, perfectly enough for their level. It allows them to play enough tournaments, to travel, pay their coach, their equipment is not an issue as they do have sponsors for that (even guys outside the top 1000 get their free racquets and equipment) and at the end they have their chance to play GS qualies in terms of the possibility they have to travel up there.

If they're good enough they would make enough money and points to be out of this conversation. If they're not - they get what they get and when they hang the racquet up they have enough opportunities for their life.


Tell me more about the expenses and how these guys are managing their careers, you seem to have so many clues...
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:03 PM   #68
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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The highest ranked teenager is 263rd, he's 19yo ofc
How is this relevant?
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:20 PM   #69
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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The young players play Futures and those are increasing big time year after year.

Sometimes instead of some useless challengers indeed.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:45 PM   #70
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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How is this relevant?
This means that young players and challengers are not that much connected.

Young players means futures. That's where there need to be a solid base and structure.

That's why i believe 534 Futures is a very solid number, which is maybe even a bit too much (who of us could say for sure?) and maybe they will be made a bit less, maybe not.

Challengers - 178 tournaments. It's not 39, neither 65, nor 87 - 178.

These are played by up to 250 players. Compared to the 65 ATP events played by up to 150 players overall.


A few facts - the number of challengers is decided by the ATP, it's booked and when the licenses are distributed you couldn't hold one even if you have 1 mil to give away.

1. Why is the number of tournaments booked, why is it a precise number? There should be very logical reasons for this.
Please some genius explain, the "crazy hat" can share his wisdom and knowledge with us.

2. Why is the prize money booked at a certain level? Why is it f.e. 125K if the organizers could gather 200K, or 300K? Why wouldn't they be allowed to give it away as prize money?

Please Henry, be so kind and ease my crankiness...

If you guys have the answers to these 2 questions, you would have the answers to all your funky little riots...

There are many places it's not hard at all to gather these symbolic 125K, but not many are allowed to, why?
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

Bad for the game.

I'm already pissed off because they cancelled my local challenger in Ljubljana and more bad news coming up.

No.100 barely has enough for a decent living out of his prize money, while top10 are millionares and don't tell me they are SO much better. Federer doesn't need 150 million $ on his bank account, does he?

I want a world where money is spread out consistently and fairly.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:07 PM   #72
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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why would a guy's sad tennis career be always the fault of someone else?
I think you've made some good points, latso.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:11 PM   #73
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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I think you've made some good points, latso.
said no one ever
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:16 PM   #74
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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said no one ever
Ok, that's cool. You can respond to him if you like.

I think he made some good points about that Alcaide guy you brought up.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:56 PM   #75
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
This means that young players and challengers are not that much connected.

Young players means futures. That's where there need to be a solid base and structure.

That's why i believe 534 Futures is a very solid number, which is maybe even a bit too much (who of us could say for sure?) and maybe they will be made a bit less, maybe not.

Challengers - 178 tournaments. It's not 39, neither 65, nor 87 - 178.

These are played by up to 250 players. Compared to the 65 ATP events played by up to 150 players overall.


A few facts - the number of challengers is decided by the ATP, it's booked and when the licenses are distributed you couldn't hold one even if you have 1 mil to give away.

1. Why is the number of tournaments booked, why is it a precise number? There should be very logical reasons for this.
Please some genius explain, the "crazy hat" can share his wisdom and knowledge with us.

2. Why is the prize money booked at a certain level? Why is it f.e. 125K if the organizers could gather 200K, or 300K? Why wouldn't they be allowed to give it away as prize money?

Please Henry, be so kind and ease my crankiness...

If you guys have the answers to these 2 questions, you would have the answers to all your funky little riots...

There are many places it's not hard at all to gather these symbolic 125K, but not many are allowed to, why?
You're such a mad crank I can't even tell if you're being rhetorical or asking genuine questions.
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