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Old 12-07-2012, 06:09 AM   #61
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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I don't understand why this forum is active during the tennis off season ?
Some people actually like tennis and to discuss it and don't disappear even though their favorites are not playing?
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:04 AM   #62
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

I do think that Agassi's peak level on grass was beyond anything that Roddick, Murray or Djokovic ever produced on the surface. The tennis that he played at Wimbledon in 1995 as he reached the semis and lead Becker by a set and a double break was scarily good, as was his level when he dispatched McEnroe, Krajicek and Rafter in straights sets there.

He was the first player to win Wimbledon from the baseline in the open era (even guys like Courier and Bruguera were coming to the net a lot there), and was making a mockery of the notion that you had to serve-volley to win Wimbledon.

Roddick had some excellent results at Wimbledon, but what were his best scalps there, probably his back to back wins over a past his prime Hewitt and a nervous Murray in 2009. He doesn't really have any other 'stand out' wins there. Murray doesn't either unless you count his R3 victory in 2006 over Roddick who had been playing like crap all year.

Djokovic has never looked overly comfortable on grass to me, but to his credit he was able to capitalise on the momentum from his annus mirablis and ownership of Nadal last year, and take the big Wimbledon title.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:18 AM   #63
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Speaking of Roddick I completely agree with Burrow that it is a myth that he would have been more successful at Wimbledon on the old-style 90s grass.

You couldn't win Wimbledon back then without a strong return of serve. Sampras's may not have been an all-time greater returner, but his return of serve still was very effective on grass. Stich had an outstanding backhand return that was one of his biggest weapons. Goran's return of serve was criminally underrated. Watch his matches in the early 90s on all surfaces to see that. In the 1998 Wimbledon final he returned very well to break Sampras twice (Sampras was only broken 4 times in his 7 Wimbledon finals). Krajicek had a decent forehand return of serve and improved his backhand return considerably ahead of his 1996 title win.

Those guys could all hit clean return winners pretty regularly. Roddick's return doesn't compare to that of any of those guys. Not to mention that they were far better at the net than Roddick has ever been. Goran and Stich were far more athletic, instinctive and better movers on grass than him, and Krajicek also moved better than him on the surface I think.

Roddick actually complained when the surface at San Jose was sped up in 2007 as well. He prefers medium paced and slightly fast surfaces over incredibly fast ones, so the 00s grass has suited his game more than the old grass would have done I believe.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:19 AM   #64
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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I do think that Agassi's peak level on grass was beyond anything that Roddick, Murray or Djokovic ever produced on the surface. The tennis that he played at Wimbledon in 1995 as he reached the semis and lead Becker by a set and a double break was scarily good, as was his level when he dispatched McEnroe, Krajicek and Rafter in straights sets there.

He was the first player to win Wimbledon from the baseline in the open era (even guys like Courier and Bruguera were coming to the net a lot there), and was making a mockery of the notion that you had to serve-volley to win Wimbledon.

Roddick had some excellent results at Wimbledon, but what were his best scalps there, probably his back to back wins over a past his prime Hewitt and a nervous Murray in 2009. He doesn't really have any other 'stand out' wins there. Murray doesn't either unless you count his R3 victory in 2006 over Roddick who had been playing like crap all year.

Djokovic has never looked overly comfortable on grass to me, but to his credit he was able to capitalise on the momentum from his annus mirablis and ownership of Nadal last year, and take the big Wimbledon title.
Agassi definitely had the best Wimbledon resume over Roddick, Djokovic and Murray. But kind of like Djokovic, depsite the Wimbledon success neither of them have any grass court titles other than that, not even a single final from like Queens. Of course, Queens much less important than Wimbledon, but the thread is after all about grass in general. Agassi has a 50-18 record on grass (73.5%) while Roddick has a 86-22 record on grass (79.6%).

Yes, quality of opponents do somewhat matter, but then again, kind of unfair to Roddick considering that Sampras and Agassi were the only Wimbledon champions to really head into Roddick's generation, while during Agassi's time there were certainly more Wimbledon champions around since there wasn't anyone that dominated Wimbledon prior to Sampras as much as Pete did himself.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:20 AM   #65
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Whoah, why is my post gone? Biased ****
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:44 AM   #66
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

You can't compare returns of guys from '90 with returns of guys from current era. With the fact that today's guys have longer reaction time, they also can afford just to make floating return back in play and the point starts from 0 again , if they were doing this in '90 they would eat volley winner before they balance their body from return move. In '90 guys had to return much more aggressively and it's logical they couldn't have been so constant on it
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:53 AM   #67
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Agassi definitely had the best Wimbledon resume over Roddick, Djokovic and Murray. But kind of like Djokovic, depsite the Wimbledon success neither of them have any grass court titles other than that, not even a single final from like Queens. Of course, Queens much less important than Wimbledon, but the thread is after all about grass in general. Agassi has a 50-18 record on grass (73.5%) while Roddick has a 86-22 record on grass (79.6%).

Yes, quality of opponents do somewhat matter, but then again, kind of unfair to Roddick considering that Sampras and Agassi were the only Wimbledon champions to really head into Roddick's generation, while during Agassi's time there were certainly more Wimbledon champions around since there wasn't anyone that dominated Wimbledon prior to Sampras as much as Pete did himself.
little correction, Djokovic did reach the final of Queens and lost to Nadal. You won't see Nole winning any other grass tournaments as he won't be playing either Queens or Halle. only Wimbledon. Agree with you about Agassi.

LeChuck summed up everything pretty well. It was a good read, spot on.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:57 AM   #68
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Agassi definitely had the best Wimbledon resume over Roddick, Djokovic and Murray. But kind of like Djokovic, depsite the Wimbledon success neither of them have any grass court titles other than that, not even a single final from like Queens. Of course, Queens much less important than Wimbledon, but the thread is after all about grass in general. Agassi has a 50-18 record on grass (73.5%) while Roddick has a 86-22 record on grass (79.6%).
Well with the grass court season so short and so soon after RG, not all players have taken the warm-up events seriously. Different players have had different ways to prepare for Wimbledon. I'm not saying that Queen's/Halle titles are pointless are anything, but I don't think they should carry a huge amount of weight.

Borg couldn't be bothered with Queen's. Agassi only played one grass court warm-up event in the 90s, at Halle in 1993 when he made his comeback following a wrist injury and was given a huge appearance fee. Heck he often played very few warm-up matches ahead of RG as well but would still reach finals and semis there in the early 90s. He was just that good, and often didn't need a full week at Halle/Queen's to prepare for Wimbledon.

Sampras won Queen's twice but regularly half-assed it there and sometimes tanked when he felt that he had enough match-practice on grass before Wimbledon; Bjorkman and Woodforde said themselves that their wins over him there weren't 'real wins' and bookmakers were sensible enough not to adjust his Wimbledon title odds after defeats like that.

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Yes, quality of opponents do somewhat matter, but then again, kind of unfair to Roddick considering that Sampras and Agassi were the only Wimbledon champions to really head into Roddick's generation, while during Agassi's time there were certainly more Wimbledon champions around since there wasn't anyone that dominated Wimbledon prior to Sampras as much as Pete did himself.
Well I would argue that this point has benefited Roddick somewhat, as over the years it is not like he has had to overcome particularly fearsome draws to reach Federer at Wimbledon (apart from 2009), with a lack of grass court specialists/increase in hard courters on the tour. In the 90s, Goran and Agassi had many more dangerous, lower ranked grass court opponents to have to worry about in the first week of Wimbledon. Plus for most of their careers there were only 16 seeds at the slams, which increased the danger of being upset early further.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:38 AM   #69
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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little correction, Djokovic did reach the final of Queens and lost to Nadal. You won't see Nole winning any other grass tournaments as he won't be playing either Queens or Halle. only Wimbledon. Agree with you about Agassi.
Don't forget Nole also has a Queens title (in doubles) Ironically, that's also his only doubles title
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:52 AM   #70
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Roddick had some excellent results at Wimbledon, but what were his best scalps there, probably his back to back wins over a past his prime Hewitt and a nervous Murray in 2009. He doesn't really have any other 'stand out' wins there. Murray doesn't either unless you count his R3 victory in 2006 over Roddick who had been playing like crap all year.
As you know, many of the best grass court players over the years have been outside the top ranks, which were understandably dominated by other specialists. Grass is a uniquely alienating blip on the tour that sometimes favored distinct talents. Roddick's wins over guys like Ancic, Grosjean, Rusedski and Schalken were more credible than ousting certain higher ranks.

And again, this has been consistent for years. Let's not forget that Sampras' last three Wimbledons were won without facing a single guy in the top 15.


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Speaking of Roddick I completely agree with Burrow that it is a myth that he would have been more successful at Wimbledon on the old-style 90s grass.

You couldn't win Wimbledon back then without a strong return of serve. Sampras's may not have been an all-time greater returner, but his return of serve still was very effective on grass. Stich had an outstanding backhand return that was one of his biggest weapons. Goran's return of serve was criminally underrated. Watch his matches in the early 90s on all surfaces to see that. In the 1998 Wimbledon final he returned very well to break Sampras twice (Sampras was only broken 4 times in his 7 Wimbledon finals). Krajicek had a decent forehand return of serve and improved his backhand return considerably ahead of his 1996 title win.

Those guys could all hit clean return winners pretty regularly. Roddick's return doesn't compare to that of any of those guys. Not to mention that they were far better at the net than Roddick has ever been. Goran and Stich were far more athletic, instinctive and better movers on grass than him, and Krajicek also moved better than him on the surface I think.
I agree insofar that some of the bigger servers of yesteryear were better returners than Roddick, but not by much. The primary difference was that guys like Sampras and especially Ivanisevic took more chances than Roddick, who played deep on returns. When he was proactive, though, it was mostly to the same effect. You mention Ivanisevic breaking Sampras; I'm pretty sure Roddick and Hewitt were the only two guys to have broken Federer at Wimbledon '04. And before we go praising the return of the old guys too much, those are the same guys who championed the tiebreak/one break of serve format that's so prevalent today.

Still, I concur that Roddick's return-of-serve would be hindered on faster grass, but frankly, I think some of your points inflate the old guard. Ivanisevic and Krajicek as more athletic, better movers on the surface? When was movement on grass ever really an issue for prime Roddick on grass? When he dropped weight for Wimbledon '04, he looked as quick as ever, and it showed in his improvisation. I've seen enough of Ivanisevic's clunky approach shots and clumsy horizontal movement to know that his athleticism is not otherworldy. To that point, as much as poor returns wouldn’t fly on fast grass, guys in the 90’s got away with baseline and approach shots that just wouldn’t cut it today, so Andy’s game would certainly have its strengths on the surface.

Roddick had no problem making his way around a grass court in his youth, and he actually played net quite well. And hell, as late as ’09 he even posted better percentages up there than Federer. His net game might not hold up to some guys in the 90's, but it made a difference. And on a quicker surface, who knows? It's a lot easier to anticipate moving forward when the surface speeds facilitate such an effort.

In any case, as you mentioned, a guy like Agassi dismissed the notion that grass court tennis was restricted to serve-and-volleying. What’s important is to play to the principles of the surface. While serve-and-volleying is one way to do that, it’s certainly not restricted to that. Guys like Roddick and Murray, despite their limitations, clearly had a natural feel for the surface, even if unconventionally so.

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Old 12-07-2012, 09:04 AM   #71
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Gaudio benefitted from Coria's mental destruction. If you think he's an all-surface legendary player like Djokovic, you are confused.

The Roddick ball bludgeoning was a result of an inept playing style & embarrassing poor fitness.

Fed was not "past his prime" at age 27. LMAO
At least the 2009 Wimbledon final was predictable and treated as one of the overhyped exhibitions of Roddick's life. Nothing more important than that.

Dick coddled Federer like a doll during the 2009 French Open, so he just laughed all the way to the bank. No wonder everyone laughed in disgust.
Anyone with knowledge of the fake FedRoddick rivalry would've forgotten about their '03-'05 grass jokes.
Here boy! Sit boy! Quiet boy! Listen...

The fact is: Gaudio has a French Open, and Novak does not. If one subscribes the notion that a major title on a given surface instantly makes that player superior to those who don't, then that standard is applied consistently. Don't give me crap about Novak's "all court" abilities because that has nothing to do with his results at the clay major.

The more you denigrate Gaudio's effort, the more you feed my point because it shows that stats without context do not reflect reality.


The rest of your post, unsurprisingly, is nothing more than heretical, delusional dribble. For all your nonsense about Roddick, neither Murray nor Djokovic looked as convincing at this year's Wimbledon against Fed as Roddick has in a couple of past efforts.

I know you're trying, but you'll need to do more than bark loudly if you want a bone. And if you keep this stuff up, we may have to take you to the vet soon.

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Old 12-07-2012, 09:37 AM   #72
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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The rest of your post, unsurprisingly, is nothing more than heretical, delusional dribble. For all your nonsense about Roddick, neither Murray nor Djokovic looked as convincing at this year's Wimbledon against Fed as Roddick has in a couple of past efforts.
You must be the new guy here Heya is not your ordinary poster
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #73
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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You must be the new guy here Heya is not your ordinary poster
Haha, I am, and I'm actually envious of the patience of most MTF members because I still can't bring myself to put up with or ignore its displays of insanity in every thread the way that you classy gents do.

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Old 12-07-2012, 10:00 AM   #74
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Haha, I am, and I'm actually envious of the patience of most MTF members because I still can't bring myself to put up with or ignore its displays of insanity in every thread the way that you classy gents do.

It's an acquired taste. Stay around long enough and you will learn to appreciate the weirdness and insanity
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:01 AM   #75
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Haha, I am, and I'm actually envious of the patience of most MTF members because I still can't bring myself to put up with or ignore its displays of insanity in every thread the way that you classy gents do.

in your user cp you can put people like that in "ignore list" and not see their posts, it helps
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