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View Poll Results: Which format do you prefer for the Final?

Multiple choice poll 19 27.14%
Single choice poll 19 27.14%
Tennis draw 15 21.43%
Final draw 4 5.71%
Elimination 11 15.71%
Race 2 2.86%
Other choice (specify in post) 0 0%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:25 AM   #31
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

So, again, despite Hian maybe intending 10 players for the Final, I have decided to make the Semifinals a little more interesting, by allowing only 4 out of each to pass. That means that one out of the 5 favorites won't be going further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
Something for Slasher : I had the impression that the players in youir first semifinal were ordered according to the number of votes they got in previous rounds.

I think it would be better to make a kind of "random order"
Random order it shall be in the Final if it is a multiple choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Wombat View Post
It should be a multiple choice poll with the 8 players and also options for "Warlocq" and "I hate tennis",(As Hian would have done). You pick the two winning players after a certain amount of days and pit them against each other in a final. People vote for the finalists similar to ACC competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak3yman84 View Post
GOAT choices! I like this idea.
Warlocq being the symbol of "I love tennis". I would go for this, but I am not transposing myself into Hian, so... nay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
I like the tennis draw idea too.

My only issue with it is that we may not get enough participation in the off season to complete so many matches, each with multiple sets.
It doesn't have to have many participants. Each participant would be voting once in a few hours. So, you would be voting multiple times during the competition.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:42 AM   #32
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
It doesn't have to have many participants. Each participant would be voting once in a few hours. So, you would be voting multiple times during the competition.
Then the draw idea is the best.
Are you going to decide solely based on the results of the poll in this thread?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Then the draw idea is the best.
Are you going to decide solely based on the results of the poll in this thread?
Yes. With one exception. In case multiple choice ties with anything else, I'm choosing multiple since it was the format in the previous rounds. Doesn't it seem fair to do so?
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
My opinion that among the two, a single choice would be better. [...]
Here an analogy:
A tournament is played featuring a suspect new surface, fast slippy clay f.i., like in Madrid this year.
Federer can't play at the very highest level in this surface, but Djokovic and Nadal have much bigger problems, are out after the QF already.
Then the organisers suddenly get worried about the upsets, which result from the strange surface.
They decide after the QF to move to Barcelona and play SF + final in a normal clay court in order to get better results.
In contrast to Madrid, in the Barcelona clay Berdych has no real chance in the final against Federer and loses in straights, while Nadal would have won easily.

This analogy may not be perfect but at least shows what effects mid contest rule changes can have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Again speaking theoretically, a strategic vote against a player can go to any of the others in a single choice poll, at least in the beginning when there is no obvious front runner other than the supposed favourite. Some people may vote for player B, some for player C, etc. In a multiple choice poll, you just vote for everyone put the player you dislike. If anything, the single choice poll would have a lesser "negative" effect.
But in the case of this contest there will be obvious favorites after the SF.
So the strategic votes in a single choice final wouldn't be spread randomly at all.
Wouldn't it be better then for better/cleaner results when in a multiple choice final the strategical votes at least simply went to all or most of the other players instead?
F.i. with the single choice poll all Federer haters could simply vote for Haas, which would cause terribly distorted results, strangely biased towards Haas.

Well, one can object now that Haas got his good results mostly from the 2nd and 3rd votes so far, which wouldn't be possible in a single choice final.
Then again MANY top favorites of the voters would be ousted by then (because of MC) and the strategical votes may go to Haas again because the strategical/hate voters are aware of his good SF results.

That's why I said, let's go all the way with multiple choice, not change it mid contest. The disadvantages would outweigh. The identity of this contest, that is already formed, would be screwed.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
Here an analogy:
A tournament is played featuring a suspect new surface, fast slippy clay f.i., like in Madrid this year.
Federer can't play at the very highest level in this surface, but Djokovic and Nadal have much bigger problems, are out after the QF already.
Then the organisers suddenly get worried about the upsets, which result from the strange surface.
They decide after the QF to move to Barcelona and play SF + final in a normal clay court in order to get better results.
In contrast to Madrid, in the Barcelona clay Berdych has no real chance in the final against Federer and loses in straights, while Nadal would have won easily.

This analogy may not be perfect but at least shows what effects mid contest rule changes can have.



But in the case of this contest there will be obvious favorites after the SF.
So the strategic votes in a single choice final wouldn't be spread randomly at all.
Wouldn't it be better then for better/cleaner results when in a multiple choice final the strategical votes at least simply went to all or most of the other players instead?
F.i. with the single choice poll all Federer haters could simply vote for Haas, which would cause terribly distorted results, strangely biased towards Haas.

Well, one can object now that Haas got his good results mostly from the 2nd and 3rd votes so far, which wouldn't be possible in a single choice final.
Then again MANY top favorites of the voters would be ousted by then (because of MC) and the strategical votes may go to Haas again because the strategical/hate voters are aware of his good SF results.

That's why I said, let's go all the way with multiple choice, not change it mid contest. The disadvantages would outweigh. The identity of this contest, that is already formed, would be screwed.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
Here an analogy:
A tournament is played featuring a suspect new surface, fast slippy clay f.i., like in Madrid this year.
Federer can't play at the very highest level in this surface, but Djokovic and Nadal have much bigger problems, are out after the QF already.
Then the organisers suddenly get worried about the upsets, which result from the strange surface.
They decide after the QF to move to Barcelona and play SF + final in a normal clay court in order to get better results.
In contrast to Madrid, in the Barcelona clay Berdych has no real chance in the final against Federer and loses in straights, while Nadal would have won easily.

This analogy may not be perfect but at least shows what effects mid contest rule changes can have.



But in the case of this contest there will be obvious favorites after the SF.
So the strategic votes in a single choice final wouldn't be spread randomly at all.
Wouldn't it be better then for better/cleaner results when in a multiple choice final the strategical votes at least simply went to all or most of the other players instead?
F.i. with the single choice poll all Federer haters could simply vote for Haas, which would cause terribly distorted results, strangely biased towards Haas.

Well, one can object now that Haas got his good results mostly from the 2nd and 3rd votes so far, which wouldn't be possible in a single choice final.
Then again MANY top favorites of the voters would be ousted by then (because of MC) and the strategical votes may go to Haas again because the strategical/hate voters are aware of his good SF results.

That's why I said, let's go all the way with multiple choice, not change it mid contest. The disadvantages would outweigh. The identity of this contest, that is already formed, would be screwed.
Currently in the first semi Haas has 64 votes, Djokovic 58. Assuming that Federer would be the favourite for the final, you claim that all the fedhaters could "simply vote for Haas". You forget that many of them are Nole fans who would obviously vote for Nole. Some Federer-hater-Nadal-fans would vote for Djokovic and some would vote for Haas. As you said, "there would be obvious favourites", but there would not be only one strong runner against Federer. So, the fedhaters votes would be somewhat spread out. In a MC poll, it is Fed vs Others for the haters. In a SC poll, it is Fed vs X vs Y and so on. The MC poll gives an effective negative vote to the haters, which the SC does not. Hence the negative effect is lesser in an SC poll. It's as simple as that.

And as for the tournament rules changing mid contest, the tournament organizer changed mid contest. There is new management. They(in this case, Slasher) should have at least a little autonomy for deciding the rules. He volunteered to continue the contest, he should be able to change the rules, especially if a majority of participants agrees. As he said, the format would be decided by the outcome of the poll.
Also, as far as I remember(not too sure of this), Hian did not mention that the final would be MC. If this is true, then the rules are not even changing.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Currently in the first semi Haas has 64 votes, Djokovic 58. Assuming that Federer would be the favourite for the final, you claim that all the fedhaters could "simply vote for Haas". You forget that many of them are Nole fans who would obviously vote for Nole. Some Federer-hater-Nadal-fans would vote for Djokovic and some would vote for Haas. As you said, "there would be obvious favourites", but there would not be only one strong runner against Federer. So, the fedhaters votes would be somewhat spread out. In a MC poll, it is Fed vs Others for the haters. In a SC poll, it is Fed vs X vs Y and so on. The MC poll gives an effective negative vote to the haters, which the SC does not. Hence the negative effect is lesser in an SC poll. It's as simple as that.
You mean the negative "volume" is smaller in SC (I don't know how to call it), but not the negative effect on the whole contest.
With MC the haters can vote for EVERY other player, which several voters already did as early as the QF.
In my opinion that is okay, it's part of this contest from the beginning and is a clear statement and doesn't really distort the results therefore.
But when you vote strategically for just ONE player, be it Haas, be it Djokovic, you do distort the results.

Sure, with MC you are not obliged to vote for every other player and you could set up a mess as well,
but I don't think there is much motivation for such a thing, and even if, it would be more random than with SC.

Furthermore, you are looking at the final only, while I'm also looking at the whole contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Also, as far as I remember(not too sure of this), Hian did not mention that the final would be MC. If this is true, then the rules are not even changing.
Hian mentioned the final. Since he just said the final would feature 8 players (period), it sounds to me like there were no format changes planned.
Anyway, I'm not respecting Hian's "rules" from principle. No, no, but I guess it's not his own idea. He got it from TF, where they already tested it.
And MC till the end makes simply most sense (as explained). For me that is logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
And as for the tournament rules changing mid contest, the tournament organizer changed mid contest. There is new management. They(in this case, Slasher) should have at least a little autonomy for deciding the rules. He volunteered to continue the contest, he should be able to change the rules, especially if a majority of participants agrees. As he said, the format would be decided by the outcome of the poll.
I just talked about contential issues so far; the effect of format changes on the contest.
The autonomy and also the responsibility(!) of the organiser is a slightly different topic.
As I said, MC is simply the most logical format for the final for me.
A poll to decide on it is fair too.
The problem with it is that some voters don't understand the "dynamics" entirely. It's apparently not so easy.
The alternative would have been to leave things as they are.

Slasher's "Tennis draw" idea for example, is interesting for a separate tournament, but what has it to do with this contest?? It is totally different.
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"Tennis must be a bourgeois sport, and so are its fans." Echoes

"Fed demolishing Dimitrov will be normal, boring, mundane. We have enough of it in our lives already.
We want something unusual, wonderful and unexpected, turning point, magic.
Hence everybody hyping Dimitrov. We want a fairy tale.
"
Riff

Last edited by Featherer : 11-28-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:54 PM   #38
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Elimination would be a nice choice here
Anything but confusing mult choice poll. I like elimination or tennis draw
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:20 AM   #39
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
You mean the negative "volume" is smaller in SC (I don't know how to call it), but not the negative effect on the whole contest.
With MC the haters can vote for EVERY other player, which several voters already did as early as the QF.
In my opinion that is okay, it's part of this contest from the beginning and is a clear statement and doesn't really distort the results therefore.
But when you vote strategically for just ONE player, be it Haas, be it Djokovic, you do distort the results.

Sure, with MC you are not obliged to vote for every other player and you could set up a mess as well,
but I don't think there is much motivation for such a thing, and even if, it would be more random than with SC.

Furthermore, you are looking at the final only, while I'm also looking at the whole contest.
I guess we finally agree on something. The MC could potentially have more of a distortion of the final result(only the winner), but the SC would potentially have more of a bad effect on the final positions(overall ordering of votes). The only difference is that you say that the latter is worse, and I say the former is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
A poll to decide on it is fair too.
The problem with it is that some voters don't understand the "dynamics" entirely. It's apparently not so easy.
The alternative would have been to leave things as they are.
Have some faith in MTF. We may not be the smartest bunch, but we are much better than a complete set of morons.

Anyway, we shall just have to wait for the poll to decide. MC has been leading practically the entire time, but as of now SC is just one vote away.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:32 AM   #40
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

^^I'm looking at the whole results, the whole contest.
Nadal and Murray will finish at around ...uh, 40th place or something - due to MC.
This contest has it's own entity and dynamics and the results are pretty strange already anyway.
But they are not distorted yet, but within the rules. It is what it is.
However when you change it it would become a mess only.
You chose to see it that way that we would get "better" results for the winner with SC.
But that would be who? Most likely Federer. Boring.
True, with MC he's still the favorite, but not this huge, it's way more exciting
and more important, we would see where this special contest / the MC with all the 2nd votes and 3rd votes (which are more important than the strategical votes!!) leads players like Haas and Dimitrov.
They (and also Gasquet) don't get their votes mainly from strategical votes but from 2nd and 3rd votes (cause many people like them).
That's no distortion. But what votes would they get in a SC final?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
A poll to decide on it is fair too.
The problem with it is that some voters don't understand the "dynamics" entirely. It's apparently not so easy.
The alternative would have been to leave things as they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Have some faith in MTF. We may not be the smartest bunch, but we are much better than a complete set of morons.
So, now you exclude me from MTF and indicate I would think all people on here are morons?
Hey, I just wrote several passionate posts about the inner dynamics of an internet fun voting contest. I claim full right to be part of this community, the MugsTrollingForum, as somebody called it lately.

But seriously, it's just a matter of dedication, how much you occupy yourself with sth.
And for me that topic, that contest and the idea is interesting.
It's only normal that most other people don't share that special interest.
On the other hand that's why the poll on deciding the format won't give the "best results" either, yes.
For example, several Fedtards have realised meanwhile they better vote for SC.
Possibly that's partly even my own fault with explaining the situation at great length and repeatedly.
But I hope this contest will be hold next year again.
So the process of understanding and agreeing on the rules is more important for me and for the future.
My favorite player, Davydenko is already out and hence I can fully focus on the theory.
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"Fed demolishing Dimitrov will be normal, boring, mundane. We have enough of it in our lives already.
We want something unusual, wonderful and unexpected, turning point, magic.
Hence everybody hyping Dimitrov. We want a fairy tale.
"
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:29 AM   #41
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherer View Post
^^I'm looking at the whole results, the whole contest.
Nadal and Murray will finish at around ...uh, 40th place or something - due to MC.
This contest has it's own entity and dynamics and the results are pretty strange already anyway.
But they are not distorted yet, but within the rules. It is what it is.
However when you change it it would become a mess only.
You chose to see it that way that we would get "better" results for the winner with SC.
But that would be who? Most likely Federer. Boring.
True, with MC he's still the favorite, but not this huge, it's way more exciting
and more important, we would see where this special contest / the MC with all the 2nd votes and 3rd votes (which are more important than the strategical votes!!) leads players like Haas and Dimitrov.
They (and also Gasquet) don't get their votes mainly from strategical votes but from 2nd and 3rd votes (cause many people like them).
That's no distortion. But what votes would they get in a SC final?
I understood that, as I mentioned in my last post.

To me, this series of polls is to give one single winner. Not an overall ranking(We have Eden's thread for that). The player who finished 5th in the final does not finish 5th overall(entire contest). In any contest which has groups with elimination it is not possible to declare an overall ranking. (Just as you don't order the losing semifinalists in the typical tennis tournament.) So, we should be more concerned on the outcome on only the final winner.

As I mentioned earlier, I agree that a SC would have more of an effect on players other than the winner.(Few players getting unusually high votes, and few unusually low). But, that is beside the point(for me) of this polling.

Coming to the point of Federer being the winner, that is practically a given for any format on this forum today. See how close the result in this thread is. And that was when there a lot of Safin votes as he had just retired.

Quote:
So, now you exclude me from MTF and indicate I would think all people on here are morons?
Hey, I just wrote several passionate posts about the inner dynamics of an internet fun voting contest. I claim full right to be part of this community, the MugsTrollingForum, as somebody called it lately.

But seriously, it's just a matter of dedication, how much you occupy yourself with sth.
And for me that topic, that contest and the idea is interesting.
It's only normal that most other people don't share that special interest.
On the other hand that's why the poll on deciding the format won't give the "best results" either, yes.
For example, several Fedtards have realised meanwhile they better vote for SC.
Possibly that's partly even my own fault with explaining the situation at great length and repeatedly.
But I hope this contest will be hold next year again.
So the process of understanding and agreeing on the rules is more important for me and for the future.
My favorite player, Davydenko is already out and hence I can fully focus on the theory.
Relax a little. I was not excluding you from MTF, nowhere close to it. It was just my attempt at dry humour.

I do like this idea(The series of MC polls). To make myself clear, I am not fundamentally against the MC poll, and I also agree with the idea of keeping it for the final for the sake of continuity. The debate from my side was more to discuss the inner dynamics of the voting contest, as you put it. I'd rather be discussing this than the ACC and the high school PopCon contest in NT.

Slasher said he would not be continuing this next year, and with Hian gone, we need someone else to do this next year. Maybe you could do it, and I could do a tennis draw and see which is more popular.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:18 AM   #42
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

multiple choice please
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:16 AM   #43
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

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I understood that, as I mentioned in my last post.
I'm not so sure about that.
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To me, this series of polls is to give one single winner. Not an overall ranking(We have Eden's thread for that). The player who finished 5th in the final does not finish 5th overall(entire contest). In any contest which has groups with elimination it is not possible to declare an overall ranking. (Just as you don't order the losing semifinalists in the typical tennis tournament.) So, we should be more concerned on the outcome on only the final winner.
As I mentioned earlier, I agree that a SC would have more of an effect on players other than the winner.(Few players getting unusually high votes, and few unusually low). But, that is beside the point(for me) of this polling.
When you are taking the title of this poll series this literally (THE single winner...), it would have been better to apply SC right from the start (or, out of necessity, at least from the QF onwards, since only around 130 people are voting), right? But that's not the case!

As for the overall ranking, I said "around 40th place", just in order to illustrate how early they were eliminated, that they were not even close to make the semis...
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Coming to the point of Federer being the winner, that is practically a given for any format on this forum today. See how close the result in this thread is. And that was when there a lot of Safin votes as he had just retired.
I said too he would probably be the favorite anyway, which is one more reason to NOT only focus on the single winner now, but keep on using MC.
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Relax a little. I was not excluding you from MTF, nowhere close to it. It was just my attempt at dry humour.
So you are not excluding me from the tennis mugs community. ...Don't try that dry humour thing ever again on me.
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I do like this idea(The series of MC polls). To make myself clear, I am not fundamentally against the MC poll, and I also agree with the idea of keeping it for the final[...]
And I think SC right from the start (or from the QF) is very worth considering, to be honest.
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[...]for the sake of continuity.
Well, that again wasn't my main reason, neither were it "Hian's rules".
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The debate from my side was more to discuss the inner dynamics of the voting contest, as you put it. I'd rather be discussing this than the ACC and the high school PopCon contest in NT.
Still, we both are mugs.
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Slasher said he would not be continuing this next year, and with Hian gone, we need someone else to do this next year. Maybe you could do it, and I could do a tennis draw and see which is more popular.
I can't guarantee that. It's pretty time consuming. If somebody else would volunteer I won't be in their way for sure. Also I definitely wouldn't mind if Slasher changed his.

As for the "Tennis draw", I consider it a clear improvement over the tedious "Seed elimination" game they sometimes play in NT during (and still after) the GrandSlams.
In fact I'm actually wondering why nobody had this idea earlier.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

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I'm not so sure about that.

When you are taking the title of this poll series this literally (THE single winner...), it would have been better to apply SC right from the start (or, out of necessity, at least from the QF onwards, since only around 130 people are voting), right? But that's not the case!

As for the overall ranking, I said "around 40th place", just in order to illustrate how early they were eliminated, that they were not even close to make the semis...

I said too he would probably be the favorite anyway, which is one more reason to NOT only focus on the single winner now, but keep on using MC.

So you are not excluding me from the tennis mugs community. ...Don't try that dry humour thing ever again on me.

And I think SC right from the start (or from the QF) is very worth considering, to be honest.

Well, that again wasn't my main reason, neither were it "Hian's rules".
Since we agree on so much, lets just call a truce.
I do understand your opinions and agree with it to a certain extant, but not entirely.

Quote:
Still, we both are mugs.
Of course. After all, this is the Mugs Tennis Forum.

Quote:
I can't guarantee that. It's pretty time consuming. If somebody else would volunteer I won't be in their way for sure. Also I definitely wouldn't mind if Slasher changed his.

As for the "Tennis draw", I consider it a clear improvement over the tedious "Seed elimination" game they sometimes play in NT during (and still after) the GrandSlams.
In fact I'm actually wondering why nobody had this idea earlier.
I have been guilty of starting one of those seed elimination games
Maybe after the AO draw is out, I could start a Tennis Draw game for it. 128 players would be a lot though.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: Favourite Top 100 Tennis Player - Decide the Final's format

^^With 128 players it's tough indeed.
It would require some awareness from the entrants, the more since you can't start a thread for every single match of the early rounds.
Everybody would have to take care of simultaneous voting and wrong counting.

For reducing the amount of everything my idea would be to use less extensive counting systems in the early rounds.
For example:
1st Rd: 1 vote = 1 game (also in tiebreak) ...so a player needs at least 3x6 = 18 votes for victory
2nd Rd: 1 vote = 2 points (4 points in tiebreak), counting would be: "30-0", "game", or "30-30" (tiebreak: 4-0 , set , 4-4) ...hence at least 36 votes are needed for victory
3rd Rd: 1 vote = 1 point, but all games are started from Deuce (in tiebreak from "6-6"), so a player needs a 2 points lead ...that can already take a bit longer

If the participation is too low, the Rd 1 counting system could be applied for Rd 2 too, the Rd 2 system for Rd 3 etc. or reversely if many people take part.
It has to be tested out.
But even with the shorter counting systems lots of threads would be needed after all.
For the 1st Rd 8 threads ŕ 8 matches is the minimum to avoid problems with simultaneous voting and wrong counting, I think.
Not impossible but definitely tougher than "Seed elimination", but also more fun (given it works).
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DAVYDENKO FEDERER Berdych Gulbis Janowicz Youzhny Stepanek Dolgopolov Tomic Melzer

"Tennis must be a bourgeois sport, and so are its fans." Echoes

"Fed demolishing Dimitrov will be normal, boring, mundane. We have enough of it in our lives already.
We want something unusual, wonderful and unexpected, turning point, magic.
Hence everybody hyping Dimitrov. We want a fairy tale.
"
Riff
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