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Old 10-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #676
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

I have a basic question or 2, how high/low is the ranking for you to be a commitment player, and if you are a commitment player does this mean you can't play Challengers, how high does the ranking have to be before a player is not allowed to play Challenger's anymore, thanks?

Good to have you back Slasher, was wondering where you wen't.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:04 PM   #677
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

From the ATP Rulebook regarding withdrawal from ATP 500 events:

9.03 South African Airways ATP Rankings (Singles)

C. ATP World Tour 500 – Ranking Penalty.
A player’s (Commitment and Non-Commitment players) withdrawal from an ATP World Tour 500 event whether on time or after the 12 noon deadline, shall result in a zero (0) point ranking penalty. Further non-consecutive withdrawals shall result in a zero (0) point allocation replacing the next best positive result for each additional withdrawal.

Players with multiple consecutive withdrawals who are out of competition for 30 days or longer due to injury will not be subject to a ranking penalty as long as verified and approved medical forms are provided; or, a player shall not have the ranking penalty imposed if he completes the Promotional Activities requirement as specified under “Repeal of Withdrawal Fines and/or Penalties” or if the on-site withdrawal procedures apply. Players may also appeal withdrawal penalties to a Tribunal who will determine whether the penalties are affirmed or set aside.

A player who has received a zero (0) point ranking penalty for withdrawing from an ATP World Tour 500 event may replace the zero (0) point by playing an additional ATP World Tour 500 event in that same calendar year for a total of four (4) played. The replacement tournament must be after the 500 withdrawal that has resulted in a ranking penalty. Only one (1) additional ATP World Tour 500 event
per year may be used to replace an ATP World Tour 500 ranking penalty


Seems to me as if Murray should get a 0 pointer for Basel, unless he was on-hand for Promotional Activities, which as far as I know, he wasn't. Since there are no more 500's after Basel, then the zero pointer cannot be replaced.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:07 PM   #678
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
The reason why I had guessed he would get this zeropointer is that he had withdrawn from Basel while still playing Moscow.
You could have, but I could have done nothing, since I was away. Might as well implement some sort of place where regular users can "tell" the rankings about such things. Hmmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
Hmm, Mr. Slasher, maybe we are looking at two different rankings breakdown lists?
I'm looking at Kohlschreiber's singles ATP ranking list (52 weeks) listed below.
Sorry for the confusion.

Code:
Grand Slams
Date 	        Tournament 	Round 	Points 	Drop Date
25.06.2012 	Wimbledon 	Q 	360 	08.07.2013
27.08.2012 	US Open 	R16 	180 	09.09.2013
16.01.2012 	Australian Open R16 	180 	28.01.2013
27.05.2012 	Roland Garros 	R64 	45 	10.06.2013
ATP World Tour Masters 1000
Date 	        Tournament 	                        Round 	Points 	Drop Date
06.08.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Canada 	R16 	90 	12.08.2013
07.11.2011 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Paris 	R32 	70 	05.11.2012
07.10.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Shanghai 	R32 	45 	14.10.2013
21.03.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami 	R32 	45 	01.04.2013
08.03.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Indian Well	R64 	25 	18.03.2013
12.08.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Cincinnati 	R64 	10 	19.08.2013
13.05.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Rome 	R64 	10 	20.05.2013
06.05.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Madrid 	R64 	10 	13.05.2013
ATP World Tour 500
Date 	        Tournament 	Round 	Points 	Drop Date
16.07.2012 	Hamburg 	Q 	90 	22.07.2013
Best of Other Countable Tournaments
Date 	        Tournament 	Round 	Points 	Drop Date
30.04.2012 	Munich 	        W 	250 	06.05.2013
22.07.2012 	Kitzbühel 	F 	150 	29.07.2013
11.06.2012 	Halle 	        S 	90 	17.06.2013
30.01.2012 	Montpellier 	S 	90 	04.02.2013
09.01.2012 	Auckland 	S 	90 	14.01.2013
Non-Countable Tournaments
Date 	        Tournament 	                        Round 	Points 	Drop Date
20.05.2012 	World Team Championship 	        RR 	70 	27.05.2013
17.09.2012 	Metz 	                                Q 	45 	23.09.2013
18.06.2012 	Eastbourne 	                        Q 	45 	24.06.2013
15.04.2012 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Monte Carlo R32 	45 	22.04.2013
27.02.2012 	Delray Beach 	                        Q 	45 	04.03.2013
13.02.2012 	Rotterdam 	                        R16 	45 	18.02.2013
21.10.2012 	Valencia 	                        R32 	0 	28.10.2013
24.09.2012 	Orleans CH 	                        R32 	0 	30.09.2013
02.01.2012 	Doha 	                                R32 	0 	07.01.2013
05.11.2011 	ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Paris Q 	- 	0 	05.11.2012
Respectfully,
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See the bolded tournament. That's a repeat as it represents the qualifying tournament for a ATP1000 event already displayed. It should not be counted, and the total is 27 without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
I have a basic question or 2, how high is the ranking for you to be a commitment player, and if you are a commitment player does this mean you can't play Challengers, if this is not true how high does the ranking have to be before a player is not allowed to play Challenger's anymore, thanks?

Good to have you back Slasher, was wondering where you wen't.
30 at YE rankings is the limit to become a commitment player for the next year. The Challenger question, I know not the answer, maybe duong knows better.

Good to be back.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #679
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99
I have a basic question or 2, how high is the ranking for you to be a commitment player, and if you are a commitment player does this mean you can't play Challengers, if this is not true how high does the ranking have to be before a player is not allowed to play Challenger's anymore, thanks?
commitment players are the players who were in the top-30 just before the WTF previous year and they are committed for the next civil year (that is the ones who were in the top-30 on the 14th of november 2011 are the commitment players in 2012, the ones who will be in the top-30 next monday will be the committed players for 2013)

Extract of the rulebook about being allowed to play challengers or not :

Quote:
1) Players positioned 1-10 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings (singles)
twenty-one (21) days prior to the first Monday of the ATP Challenger Tour tournament
are prohibited from entering, accepting a wild card and/or competing in a
ATP Challenger Tour tournament.
Players who would have been, had they and
all other players entered, a direct acceptance on the original acceptance list for a
Grand Slam are prohibited from entering, accepting a wild card and/or competing
in a ATP Challenger Tour tournament in the first week of the Grand Slam tournament.
2) Players positioned 11-50 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings (singles)
twenty-one (21) days prior to the first Monday of the ATP Challenger Tour tournament
are prohibited from entering but may receive an ATP-approved wild card
in order to compete in the Challenger tournament
. The Challenger supervisor
will make wild card determinations consistent with the limitations outlined below.
Players positioned 11-50 are also prohibited from entering, accepting a wild card
or competing in ATP Challenger Tour tournaments that offer less than $50,000 in
on-site prize money.
3) ATP Challenger Tour tournaments scheduled the same week as an ATP World
Tour tournament may offer wild cards to players positioned 11-50 in the South
African Airways ATP Rankings (singles) who have received approval from the
ATP on-site supervisor according to the following breakdown:
$125,000 in prize money up to (2) two wild cards
$100,000 in prize money up to (1) one wild card
$75,000 in prize money up to (1) one wild card
$50,000 in prize money up to (1) one wild card
$35,000 in prize money no wild card
4) ATP Challenger Tour tournaments not scheduled in the same week as ATP World
Tour tournaments, or during the 2nd week of a Grand Slam, ATP World Tour
Masters 1000 Miami and Indian Wells, may offer wild cards to players positioned
11-50 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings (singles) who have received
approval from the ATP on-site supervisor according to the following breakdown:
$125,000 in prize money up to (4) four wild cards
$100,000 in prize money up to (3) three wild cards
$75,000 in prize money up to (2) two wild cards
$50,000 in prize money up to (1) one wild card
$35,000 in prize money no wild card
NOTE: These restrictions apply only to singles draws.
Case: A player ranked between 11-50 asks for a wild card into a
$50,000 ATP Challenger Tour and is denied by the tournament. The
player then signs in for the qualifying. Is he allowed to play qualifying?
Decision: He is allowed to play only if the tournament grants him
a wild card into the qualifying. The WC, however, will not count
against the maximum allowed number of 11-50 players for the
tournament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
I do not believe this is so, because someone I trust in these matters, Yolita, has said what I said in my previous post.
I don't understand what you mean : yes Murray could not have a zeropointer for not respecting his commitment for 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year because he did indeed respect this commitment, but he might have had a zeropointer for not respecting the conditions to withdraw from an ATP500 tournament properly, as Istomin got one. Besides, you can ask Yolita if she trusts me on those matters if you want
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #680
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post

See the bolded tournament. That's a repeat as it represents the qualifying tournament for a ATP1000 event already displayed. It should not be counted, and the total is 27 without it.

Good to be back.
Ah, good catch. I'm surprised they included it in the list separately.

Good to have you back!

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:19 PM   #681
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
1) Players positioned 1-10 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings (singles)
twenty-one (21) days prior to the first Monday of the ATP Challenger Tour tournament
are prohibited from entering, accepting a wild card and/or competing in a
ATP Challenger Tour tournament.
2) Players positioned 11-50 in the South African Airways ATP Rankings (singles)
twenty-one (21) days prior to the first Monday of the ATP Challenger Tour tournament
are prohibited from entering but may receive an ATP-approved wild card
in order to compete in the Challenger tournament.
So this means that if a player is in the top 50, they have to be a full time ATP tour player, but it's not high enough for them to be a commitment player.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #682
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
So this means that if a player is in the top 50, they have to be a full time ATP tour player, but it's not high enough for them to be a commitment player.
A "commitment player" just means that the guy has to play 4 ATP500 tournaments (or Monte-Carlo) in the calendar year in order to avoid a zeropointer in his rankings, AND in order to share the good $$$$$ from the bonus pool.

That's the only thing it means.

As for other top-50 players, usually they have enough with ATP world tour tournaments, sometimes they ask a wild-card in a challenger in their own country (Nieminen in Helsinki in a few weeks for instance, he plays that challenger nearly every year because that's the biggest tournament in his country) and/or if they get good money.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:35 PM   #683
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Del Potro starts this live week ahead of Tsonga, on the 7th spot. The French player loses 1445 points this week, on a combination between 800 WTF, 600 Paris and 45 Valencia. His effective drop value is 1390 for now, as his 10 in Paris replaces last year's 600 and the 45 in Valencia was non-countable.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:36 PM   #684
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
I don't understand what you mean : yes Murray could not have a zeropointer for not respecting his commitment for 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year because he did indeed respect this commitment, but he might have had a zeropointer for not respecting the conditions to withdraw from an ATP500 tournament properly, as Istomin got one. Besides, you can ask Yolita if she trusts me on those matters if you want
In Duong we trust

Seriously though, the rulebook seems pretty clear on it, according to section 9.03 C., which I quoted above. He can also be subject to code penalties/fines if the tournament files a complaint and it is judged that the withdrawal was significantly detrimental to the success of the tournament. In Basel's case, the tournament could not have been very happy, but I have no idea if any complaint was filed. From the Swiss Indoor website:


News - Oct 20, 2012
"The last minute withdrawal of Scotland’s Andy Murray from the Swiss Indoors due to injury has not exactly earned the Olympic champion any new fans from within the tennis world. Many people felt that asking for, and promptly receiving, a wildcard into last year’s tournament in Basel and then pulling out again the following year, despite signing a contract, was not really acceptable. Christoph Schwegler, Basel’s stadium announcer, demonstrated the general, slightly cool feeling. Inspired by the famous song by American Bobby McFerrin, he joked, “Don’t Murray, be happy!”"


News - Sept 25, 2012
"The Queen herself will not be present, but many English friends and guests from Switzerland certainly will be when British Day gets under way for the first time on Tuesday, 23 October 2012. The star of the show will be Scotland’s Andy Murray, the pride of Britain and its first Grand Slam winner since Fred Perry’s triumph 76 years ago. There will be no chance of rain in the St. Jakobshalle, where Murray will be arriving along with his coach Ivan Lendl, a two-time Swiss Indoors champion (1980/1981)."
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:38 PM   #685
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
A "commitment player" just means that the guy has to play 4 ATP500 tournaments (or Monte-Carlo) in the calendar year in order to avoid a zeropointer in his rankings, AND in order to share the good $$$$$ from the bonus pool.

That's the only thing it means.

As for other top-50 players, usually they have enough with ATP world tour tournaments, sometimes they ask a wild-card in a challenger in their own country (Nieminen in Helsinki in a few weeks for instance, he plays that challenger nearly every year because that's the biggest tournament in his country) and/or if they get good money.
Don't you also mean 250's? What is the bonus pool?

Oh yeah, right, forgot about those.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #686
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Don't you also mean 250's? What is the bonus pool?

Oh yeah, right, forgot about those.
4 ATP500 tournaments or Monte-Carlo

Bonus pool = money given in the end of the calendar year to commitment players who respected their commitment (remember that it was said that Djokovic took part in Paris last year in order not to lose half a million dollars ? it was the bonus pool ; remember also that it's always said that Fed is allowed to escape 2 MS1000 tournaments in the calendar year (and everyone next year) ? once again, it's the bonus pool which is concerned, it changes nothing for rankings but it changes for the bonus pool : if Djokovic had done what Fed did, he would have lost money because he still has not played enough on Tour to be allowed to do that )

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass
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Thanks : I'm an Arsenal fan and like Arsčne Wenger
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:51 PM   #687
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
News - Oct 20, 2012
"The last minute withdrawal of Scotland’s Andy Murray from the Swiss Indoors due to injury has not exactly earned the Olympic champion any new fans from within the tennis world. Many people felt that asking for, and promptly receiving, a wildcard into last year’s tournament in Basel and then pulling out again the following year, despite signing a contract, was not really acceptable. Christoph Schwegler, Basel’s stadium announcer, demonstrated the general, slightly cool feeling. Inspired by the famous song by American Bobby McFerrin, he joked, “Don’t Murray, be happy!”"[/i]

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Sounds like a legitimate reason for withdrawal if you ask me. No penalty necessary.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:17 PM   #688
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Sounds like a legitimate reason for withdrawal if you ask me. No penalty necessary.
Of course I make no accusations/judgements here regarding the withdrawal per se. That's up to the tournament and tribunal. I only point out the expectations especially given his history with the tournament. Regardless of injury, It seems like he could have been involved in the promotional activities and people would have been happier. But this strays from the thread topic. and needs no discussion here.

On topic, I still wonder why no 0 pointer for Basel, based on the rulebook.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:31 PM   #689
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Sounds like a legitimate reason for withdrawal if you ask me. No penalty necessary.
the rulebook in its words asks a lot from players to check their injury : either go on-site to have the injury checked or have the injury checked in the tournament where they played previous week, or be out of the Tour for at least one month and provide a medical certificate.

It's not only about being "injured" or not.

BUT the application of these seemingly harsh requirements is in reality very nice to players indeed (the even worst case is the suspension from a Masters 1000 tournament which is still in the rulebook and has never been applied whereas it should have been applied many times by the words of the rulebook)
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:52 PM   #690
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Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

By the way, by entering the top-100 with the number 95 rank, Guillaume Rufin (born in 1990) keeps on the great streak of French players who have had a player who reached the top-100 in each generation from 1965 to 1990 now. Spaniards have several holes (the last ones being 1984 and 1987, and no player in top-100 yet in 1988 and 1989 generations, and before that they had holes in the 1979, 1969, 1967 and 1966 generations) ; the USA and Argentina have several holes as well.

Here's the actualised list and the highest rank they reached :

Quote:
1965 Forget (4) - Benhabiles (22) - Fleurian (37)
1966 Champion (44) - Winogradsky (89)
1967 Delaitre (33) - Simian (41)
1968 Gilbert (61) (second is Solves -105)
1969 Pioline (5) - Boetsch (12)
1970 Raoux (35) - Fontang (59)
1971 Huet (96 … ouff) - no other one (second is Guardiola -106)
1972 Santoro (17) (second is Thomann - 106)
1973 Golmard (22) - Roux (48)
1974 Boutter (46)
1975 Saulnier (48) - Carraz (54)
1976 Escudé (17)
1977 Clément (10) - Gicquel (37)
1978 Grosjean (4) - Mutis (71)
1979 Di Pasquale (39) (Lisnard - 84 - is Monegasque )
1980 Llodra (21) - Devilder (60) - Robert (61) - Haehnel (78) - Patience (87)
1981 Benneteau (26) - Serra (36) - Ascione (81) - Prodon (83)
1982 Mathieu (12) - Mahut (40)
1983 Edouard Roger-Vasselin (67)
1984 Simon (6)
1985 Tsonga (5) (Montcourt was near -104- )
1986 Gasquet (7) - Monfils (7) - Ouanna (88)
1987 Chardy (30)
1988 Mannarino (49)
1989 Paire (44)
1990 Rufin (95)
next generation to get one guy in top-100 : 1991 : Olivetti, Herbert, Obry ...
In 1992 generation Gianni Mina will have to finally emerge after his big problems in recent years (now practises in the USA)
1993 generation looks weak in France, but it's a problem for the whole world actually in that generation.
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