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Old 10-28-2012, 12:17 PM   #1741
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
I was previously against the equal prize money, as i thought the guys worked more and had more spectators.

But i started slowly changing my mind, starting with the stats of the men and women finals at USO.

Yes, local player, Monday, Sunday, whatever. But, the women top 10 (which is a very volatile ranking, so the potential top 10 are actually 20 girls) have Russians, Chinese players, Aussie, American, German, Italian and French players, which in potential spectators is half the planet.

ATP we all know - 2 Spaniards, 2 Argies, a Swiss, UK, 2 Serbian, Czech and French - try to count the potential spectators and compared to China only...or the USA, or Russia..

So inevitably WTA would produce more money for tennis at the moment compared to ATP, or minimum the same amounts, so before we get a Chinese, an American and a Russian in top 10 ATP, forget about men deserving to get more money than the ladies.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:32 PM   #1742
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

No surprise there with Tipsy...
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #1743
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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GOATsol, you need to let go of your prejudices. I was not laughing at what Ivanovic said but the fact Nadal said it.
What prejudices?
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:17 PM   #1744
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I know it's hard to discuss against solid arguments, but then again staying quiet would be the better decision when you have nothing to say...
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #1745
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the WTA forum isn't exactly devoid of similar kind of jokes regarding men and men's tennis.
I think tennisforum has just as much anti-ATP attitude than MTF has anti-WTA attitude, MTF just talks about in in a more humorous way.

And my opinion on this preze money thing is that equal prize money for male and female slam winners is OK, they're the best players of their gender. But for sure there are more male professional players than female. And that's why ATP has a higher level, men's #100 is closer to #1 than women's #100, and I think male slam R2 or R3 player would deserve more prize money. I think RG used to have a system where men's and women's winners had the same prize money, but the prize money for earlier rounds' losses was higher for men. And I think that's quite fair. You can get as much money whether you're a man or a woman, even though that's a weak argument, so that the prize money would be even more equal, wheelchair players should also have the same prize money. But that system also would give less money for weaker female players than male players that lose as early, because those female players aren't as close to top as as early losing male players.

But I don't see anything like this happening, it'd be an image loss for tennis as most people think #100 female player is as close to #1 than #100 male player.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #1746
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I was previously against the equal prize money, as i thought the guys worked more and had more spectators.

But i started slowly changing my mind, starting with the stats of the men and women finals at USO.

Yes, local player, Monday, Sunday, whatever. But, the women top 10 (which is a very volatile ranking, so the potential top 10 are actually 20 girls) have Russians, Chinese players, Aussie, American, German, Italian and French players, which in potential spectators is half the planet.

ATP we all know - 2 Spaniards, 2 Argies, a Swiss, UK, 2 Serbian, Czech and French - try to count the potential spectators and compared to China only...or the USA, or Russia..

So inevitably WTA would produce more money for tennis at the moment compared to ATP, or minimum the same amounts, so before we get a Chinese, an American and a Russian in top 10 ATP, forget about men deserving to get more money than the ladies.
Tennis is not that nationalistic. Both Federer and Nadal have a lot of international fans. I would rather watch a Federer first round then a 4th round of some mug of my own nationality (even if he would be ranked 10-5).

If we were talking soccer national teams, you would be right.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:56 PM   #1747
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

The men's tour finals is being played in London.

The women have to play theirs in Istanbul.

Enough said.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:22 PM   #1748
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Tennis is not that nationalistic. Both Federer and Nadal have a lot of international fans. I would rather watch a Federer first round then a 4th round of some mug of my own nationality (even if he would be ranked 10-5).

If we were talking soccer national teams, you would be right.
Hundreds of thousands Chinese would watch a men's ATP final including one of theirs, without even knowing who the hell Federer is.

That's the whole point.

Ppl who know, like and watch tennis are probably 2% of the World and in order to get many new ones, it takes ppl from their countries winning.

Before the new generation Serbian players (Nole, Tipsy, Troicki, Ivanovic, Jelenkovic) tennis in Serbia wasn't making much noise for years and last year in Belgrade was like the elections and Djokovic was the main candidate.. He was all over the place on billboards, posters, TV, everywhere.

That's how you get new consumers and the WTA has produced probably several times more of these in the last 5 years compared to ATP imo.

If Rafa Nadal didn't appear at one point to challenge Fed's hegemony, ATP would have become as boring as WTA to start getting double the prize money instead of the inverse.

It is very important indeed to have geographical diversity for making better numbers.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:26 PM   #1749
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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The men's tour finals is being played in London.

The women have to play theirs in Istanbul.

Enough said.
Yep, bigger city, between Europe and Asia, it's clear WTA is the deal atm. And after the Olympics you won't get much attention to this event in London. Luckily a local will participate to drag some ppl on the stands.

And WTA has 2 tour's finals, answering the big demand for high quality tennis. Sofia is all tennis atm and will be till the end of it.

So yeah, you're right - nuff said
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:11 AM   #1750
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

I find your points concerning nationality interesting latso (especially with a vastly undertapped market like China), do you have any numbers on viewers per branch of the sport? So how many viewers does the WTA have, and how many does the ATP have?

Basically we are just stabbing in the dark here. We are all biased in that MTF unanimously disregards women's tennis as boring. Because of this we are imo unable to imagine people getting excited about it and may thus underestimate the fanbase women's tennis has. TF on the other hand does the opposite ofcourse. So I would like to see numbers, does anyone have those?
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:24 AM   #1751
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I find your points concerning nationality interesting latso (especially with a vastly undertapped market like China), do you have any numbers on viewers per branch of the sport? So how many viewers does the WTA have, and how many does the ATP have?

Basically we are just stabbing in the dark here. We are all biased in that MTF unanimously disregards women's tennis as boring. Because of this we are imo unable to imagine people getting excited about it and may thus underestimate the fanbase women's tennis has. TF on the other hand does the opposite ofcourse. So I would like to see numbers, does anyone have those?
What I know about numbers is that last year men's YEC had 250,000 spectators whereas women's YEC had 70,000. But that's difficult to compare because of different cities and the fact that men's YEC is two days longer as it has more doubles matches and it has two sessions in most days.

Anyway, in China women's tennis seems quite popular. Joint event in Beijing seems to have more spectators than men's only TMS in Shanghai. But Germany is another country that is currently better in women's tennis. Still, I'd think men's only TMS would be a bigger success in Germany than joint ATP 500 and WTA Premier Mandatory. Once a country has tennis culture, then ATP is always more popular, it has better quality. But if people care only about their countrymen/women, then WTA can be more popular, people only want to see their national stars do well.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:57 AM   #1752
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I find your points concerning nationality interesting latso (especially with a vastly undertapped market like China), do you have any numbers on viewers per branch of the sport? So how many viewers does the WTA have, and how many does the ATP have?

Basically we are just stabbing in the dark here. We are all biased in that MTF unanimously disregards women's tennis as boring. Because of this we are imo unable to imagine people getting excited about it and may thus underestimate the fanbase women's tennis has. TF on the other hand does the opposite ofcourse. So I would like to see numbers, does anyone have those?
I don't have numbers, but my transition from supporting the natural MTF position, toward the one i am currently supporting was the info about the USO finals, where the women final was largely more popular.

This made me think how and why, as i don't consider what the ladies do in the WTA tour as Tennis, rather a distant cousin.

But that's the same as me rating WWE compared to anykind of real sport, like MMA f.e. I cannot even imagine how ppl would watch this WWE circus, but it's a largely popular...huh...yeah, circus and it makes probably more revenue than MMA and K1 taken together.

So, at the end of the day the ladies' sport that looks like tennis might be and probably is just as popular as real tennis, perhaps also based on the fact that they have more geo diversity.

I have another theory as well - it is cheaper and easier to form a competitor if your kid is a girl, compared to if you have a boy.

Simply because your own level would match hers until she is 14-15yo and if you decide you can be your kid's coach for the rest of her career.

This is smth very popular in WTA and far less in ATP. The transition period (getting a real good coach and staff) is a very expensive and unclear process, which involves possible sponsors, long term contracts, etc. while with the girls it's much easier.

That's just my personal theory based on what i see around me and based on conversations with other dads, coaches and pros. It might be wrong and unprecise, but it's pretty close to reality i think.

This is possibly also a reason for the WTA to produce more diversity, mainly with the big growth of Russian WTA tennis in the last 10 years, as well as the Chinese.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #1753
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I have another theory as well - it is cheaper and easier to form a competitor if your kid is a girl, compared to if you have a boy.

Simply because your own level would match hers until she is 14-15yo and if you decide you can be your kid's coach for the rest of her career.

This is smth very popular in WTA and far less in ATP. The transition period (getting a real good coach and staff) is a very expensive and unclear process, which involves possible sponsors, long term contracts, etc. while with the girls it's much easier.
Interesting point, I hadn't thought about that.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:10 AM   #1754
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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What I know about numbers is that last year men's YEC had 250,000 spectators whereas women's YEC had 70,000. But that's difficult to compare because of different cities and the fact that men's YEC is two days longer as it has more doubles matches and it has two sessions in most days.

Anyway, in China women's tennis seems quite popular. Joint event in Beijing seems to have more spectators than men's only TMS in Shanghai. But Germany is another country that is currently better in women's tennis. Still, I'd think men's only TMS would be a bigger success in Germany than joint ATP 500 and WTA Premier Mandatory. Once a country has tennis culture, then ATP is always more popular, it has better quality. But if people care only about their countrymen/women, then WTA can be more popular, people only want to see their national stars do well.
The spectators on site are usually ppl who know tennis and are fans of it and normally ATP would always get more attention on the stands of tournaments than WTA as ATP is the real deal tennis wise.

But more important are the TV spectators, as they are producing the bigger part of the revenues for tennis and the goal is to get more of them.

TV spectators can be people who have never held a racquet, but are excited that their own is having success in whatever the sport.

Here in Bulgaria we have probably tripled (and more) the TV spectators of the few last Wimbledons because of Pironkova playing quarters and semies there.

It's the same for any other country normally. It would be interesting to see the TV numbers from the finals in WTA and ATP of Roland Garros 2011 (Na Li winning the women part). This could be an interesting comparison.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:02 PM   #1755
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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It's the same for any other country normally. It would be interesting to see the TV numbers from the finals in WTA and ATP of Roland Garros 2011 (Na Li winning the women part). This could be an interesting comparison.
Bearing in mind that was a Federer - Nadal final, I don't think it's plausible that the women's final was close to being as popular. Those two are still massive draws for the majority of viewers, especially when both of them are competing with each other.
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