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Old 10-10-2012, 04:19 PM   #91
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by nazzac View Post
There's been a lot of mentions for Murray being bad match-ups for players, but who's a bad match=up for Murray? I'd probs say Nadal, judging from when i've seen them play.
Berdych. The effortless stand and dictate power game he plays has Andy on the run often and he doesn't get the same opportunities to move him around like he does other big hitting players- plus Tomas handles his variety better than them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:20 PM   #92
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
Against every other grinder, Gasquet closes gaps between him and his opponent by moving forward and playing the net. I have no real reason to believe that Ferrer is somehow above that, and yet, again, he makes Gasquet look lost at net.
I wonder if it's really Gasquet you're talking about.

In France people keep on and on saying that he should play more inside the court and go to the net, but he just can't, because of his long swings when you give high and deep balls he will go back.

Gasquet is good at the net but to go there he needs either a good serve or a short ball. He doesn't go there often against grinders, and especially Ferrer with his deep and high balls doesn't allow him.

Ferrer doesn't go especially to Gasquet's backhand, he goes to the two sides : forehand and backhand, but you can push Gasquet back from the two sides, no need to be too much scared of Gasquet's backhand if you play high and deep enough.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:24 PM   #93
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Berdych. The effortless stand and dictate power game he plays has Andy on the run often and he doesn't get the same opportunities to move him around like he does other big hitting players- plus Tomas handles his variety better than them.
yes also Cilic when he's in a "few errors" day, both Berdych and Cilic have a very good return to attack second serves, and it's useful against Murray, although his second serve has improved.

Another one who has a good H2H against Murray is Baghdatis, and he also attacks Murray's second serve.

Another possibility is to grind out Murray : Ferrer can do it for instance.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:25 PM   #94
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

dont be biased, Lenders. How couldnt you post Federer-Delpo? Im a huge fan of him but is almost disgusting the bad match up that Federer is for him.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:28 PM   #95
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by nazzac View Post
There's been a lot of mentions for Murray being bad match-ups for players, but who's a bad match=up for Murray? I'd probs say Nadal, judging from when i've seen them play.
Part of that seems mental, though, because Murray is a total fanboy for Nadal and it has had an unfortunate impact on their H2H. If you look back to the 2007 AO, even before Murray's game was as developed as it is now, he managed to give Nadal fits by way of strategic shot selection. He pushed that match to five before ultimately running out of gas. Fast forward to 2010, and he wiped the floor with Nadal in their Quarterfinal encounter there.

Somehow, most notably in 2011, he really let things slip away from him, but I don't think it's all about their tennis. There isn't anything that Nadal should inherently be able to dismantle Murray with other than the occasional forehand exchanges, since Murray's forehand can be susceptible to breaking down and Rafa's spin throws wrenches into his timing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:31 PM   #96
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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yes also Cilic when he's in a "few errors" day, both Berdych and Cilic have a very good return to attack second serves, and it's useful against Murray, although his second serve has improved.

Another one who has a good H2H against Murray is Baghdatis, and he also attacks Murray's second serve.

Another possibility is to grind out Murray : Ferrer can do it for instance.
This bad match up is generally exclusive to clay courts/slow courts, cause Murray can't hit through him on clay- he gets too much balls back in awkward positions and Ferrer's own forehand is a lot more effective on that surface. It sounds crazy to say but I think there's more chance of Andy beating one of his 3 rivals on the dirt than ever beating Pics.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:35 PM   #97
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
Part of that seems mental, though, because Murray is a total fanboy for Nadal and it has had an unfortunate impact on their H2H. If you look back to the 2007 AO, even before Murray's game was as developed as it is now, he managed to give Nadal fits by way of strategic shot selection. He pushed that match to five before ultimately running out of gas. Fast forward to 2010, and he wiped the floor with Nadal in their Quarterfinal encounter there.

Somehow, most notably in 2011, he really let things slip away from him, but I don't think it's all about their tennis. There isn't anything that Nadal should inherently be able to dismantle Murray with other than the occasional forehand exchanges, since Murray's forehand can be susceptible to breaking down and Rafa's spin throws wrenches into his timing.
On hard courts that match depends how well Murray is hitting his FH. On a good day, he will usually win the match. Nadal's high topspin lands in a perfect strike zone for Murray to unleash jackhammer backhands, that's how he's crushed him a few times (USO 08, AO 10, Tokyo 11) and also why despite his deficiencies on clay, he's been competitive with Nadal a few times (the RG semi was a lot closer than the result suggested and he's taken sets off him with the same tactics from their meetings on hard courts)
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:44 PM   #98
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
This bad match up is generally exclusive to clay courts/slow courts, cause Murray can't hit through him on clay- he gets too much balls back in awkward positions and Ferrer's own forehand is a lot more effective on that surface. It sounds crazy to say but I think there's more chance of Andy beating one of his 3 rivals on the dirt than ever beating Pics.
I agree with everything except the last line because Murray's inability to hit through opponents on clay is universal. I believe that it will always be a challenge for him on slower surfaces. If you look at his matches with Berdych on clay, for instance, Andy's inability to penetrate the court gives Berdych plenty of time to unload on shots and run Murray down. Murray's stunted effort is definitely a problem when confronted with a grinder like Ferrer, but I believe it's one that extends to just about anyone formidable on the surface.


As you said before, though, the big hitters are the one Murray inherently struggles with the most. However, it's not that easy to call it an issue, because he can equally be an issue for them by neutralizing their power, busting their rhythm, and evoking errors. It's really when one of those types of players is having a really strong day that Andy is left to their will because they take advantage of his reluctant initiative. Over the years, the big hitters have been most effective at making Murray settle into a sort of defensive rut.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:48 PM   #99
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
Part of that seems mental, though, because Murray is a total fanboy for Nadal and it has had an unfortunate impact on their H2H. If you look back to the 2007 AO, even before Murray's game was as developed as it is now, he managed to give Nadal fits by way of strategic shot selection. He pushed that match to five before ultimately running out of gas. Fast forward to 2010, and he wiped the floor with Nadal in their Quarterfinal encounter there.

Somehow, most notably in 2011, he really let things slip away from him, but I don't think it's all about their tennis. There isn't anything that Nadal should inherently be able to dismantle Murray with other than the occasional forehand exchanges, since Murray's forehand can be susceptible to breaking down and Rafa's spin throws wrenches into his timing.
yes Murray has often given many problems to Nadal (even on clay in Monte-Carlo 2010).

And he's only 5-6 to him on hardcourts, 0-4 on clay and 0-3 on grass which are Nadal's favorite surfaces.

Moreover he most often met Nadal in big matches : 8 grand slam matches in their 13 meetings, 5 in semifinals. And Nadal usually plays very well there, and Nadal is just a better player.

Technically comparing to Djokovic, Murray's forehand is too much of a liability against Nadal but the H2H is clearly too inflated at the moment imo, Murray can surely defeat him.

I don't think the admiration/love Murray has for Nadal is a problem for him, I rather think the opposite, it rather motivates him to focus and fight more to take his example. For instance he found his motivation and confidence back in 2010 by practising with Nadal in Monte-Carlo after a long slump he had had after his loss to Fed in the AO final. Maybe sometimes he went too much for the fight against Nadal and didn't have the perfect tactics but I rather think his admiration for Nadal rather helped him to play better against Nadal than the opposite.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:49 PM   #100
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Federer is terrible match-up to anyone whose surname isn`t Nadal.

I thought we've already established here that Simon is not a very good match-up for Fed. Same goes e.g. for Murray.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #101
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Agree about the rest of the post, and even most of this paragraph. Nalbandian/Davydenko and Murray sure, Djokovic no way. 6-2 is a bit misleading here since three of the matches came before Delpo broke through and a lot during his comeback.


What broke through? Delpo was top10 player in two of these three matches.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:43 PM   #102
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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What broke through? Delpo was top10 player in two of these three matches.
You're right, it was only two, USO 2007 and TMC 2008. JMDP broke through (became a genuine top player) in the beginning of 2009. Then Nole won in Rome on clay and their next 5 matches came after Delpo's return to the tour. Three of these five matches came with one of them having injury problems (Delpo no BH because of wrist in Cincy and USO, Nole injured in DC). Having watched all these matches and knowing the circumstances, I definitely don't think 6-2 is explained by matchup issues.

I definitely don't think this is a bad matchup for Delpo; if healthy, he can definitely hang with Djokovic and beat him in big matches.

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Berdych. The effortless stand and dictate power game he plays has Andy on the run often and he doesn't get the same opportunities to move him around like he does other big hitting players- plus Tomas handles his variety better than them.
True. Tomas should always beat Murray in normal conditions (ie non super windy) if he's playing well. I suspect Tomas's inconsistency might lead to Murray turning the H2H around perhaps, but still a matchup Murray will never relish.

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
This bad match up is generally exclusive to clay courts/slow courts, cause Murray can't hit through him on clay- he gets too much balls back in awkward positions and Ferrer's own forehand is a lot more effective on that surface. It sounds crazy to say but I think there's more chance of Andy beating one of his 3 rivals on the dirt than ever beating Pics.
It doesn't just sound crazy, it is crazy. If for nothing else because Ferrer is 30yo with almost 900 tour matches, there's only so long he can keep his grinding style going at the top level.

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Or he constructs points to come in, which is part of why I'm so puzzled by this particular match-up. Against every other grinder, Gasquet closes gaps between him and his opponent by moving forward and playing the net. I have no real reason to believe that Ferrer is somehow above that, and yet, again, he makes Gasquet look lost at net.



Not sure I buy this since Gasquet's forehand prep is equally long if not more so. It's also much more prone to error. The only thing I can gather is that Ferrer actually enjoys that extra bit of height on the Gasquet backhand. As I said, he has really teed off on it in recent years.



This is probably the crux of it, as Gasquet spends most matches too far behind the baseline, but I wouldn't think that he'd let that happen in a match like this, where he knows his best bet is to move in and take chances.
Are you sure you're talking about Gasquet here? Against whom does he 'close gaps beween him and the opponent by moving forward and coming to the net'?

True about Gasquet's FH. Ferrer can basically choose how he wants to win against Gasquet, the latter has nothing to hurt him with. Ferrer is just a far better player in almost all departments.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:03 PM   #103
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

berdych will never bt djokovic
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:04 PM   #104
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
You're right, it was only two, USO 2007 and TMC 2008. JMDP broke through (became a genuine top player) in the beginning of 2009. Then Nole won in Rome on clay and their next 5 matches came after Delpo's return to the tour.
Only one - In 2008 DelPo has had 46-16 w/l record, has won four titles and before TMC 2008 he was ranked 8th. I mean, 8th player in the world is a genuine top player, right?
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:15 PM   #105
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Default Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Lenders, you are deluded to think that Del-Potro has only lost to Djokovic because he was injured. You're sounding as bad as a Nadal fan.

The Djokovic blend of attack and defense will always be too much for a one-dimensional basher, and heck, even Murray (Djokovic-Lite) has wins against Del-Potro.
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