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Old 08-24-2012, 06:15 PM   #61
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
The irony of all this is that cycling's dopesting is approx 2362346245624562456x more comprehensive than that of tennis.

I wouldn't be surprised if everybody in the top25 was doping. That's what happens in sports where there's basically no testing: the dopers dominate (see baseball).
very true.

i also wouldn't be surprised at all. i do think some do it more than others but i'd be surprised if there is even 1 person in the top 50 who has ever taken illicit performance enhancing substances.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by Looner View Post
This is not surprising coming from you (ie cluelessness) but Armstrong has been going to court for more pathetic reasons than even Apple for well over a decade now and now he decides (out of nowhere) he's not going to sue. Lol at logic.
If he never failed any drug test, frankly I find it wrong for this to have dragged on this long, Perhaps he did dope, yet that was NEVER established factually. There is no material basis for this having been pursued this long.

"Armstrong, who has branded the USADA investigation "an unconstitutional witch hunt," had gone to court in a bid to block the agency's proceedings.
But on Monday a federal judge in his hometown of Austin dismissed his lawsuit, leaving Armstrong until midnight on Thursday to tell USADA whether or not he would seek arbitration.

USADA maintains that Armstrong used banned substances -- including the blood-booster EPO, steroids and blood transfusions -- dating back to 1996, and said 10 of his former team-mates were ready to testify against him."

My question is where is the evidence apart from others'accusations?

Now this is troubling, "USADA said it also had blood tests taken from 2009-2010, when Armstrong briefly came out of retirement to compete internationally again, that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."

Oscar Pereiro -- handed the 2006 Tour victory after winner US Floyd Landis stated, "I'm convinced that the riders who spoke out against Armstrong have done so on condition that they won't be punished and that they won't have their winnings withdrawn. Is that right?"

My position: even if Armstrong or a tennis player is thought or believed or it is speculated or assumed to have doped and has been accused by others after the fact, if there is NO EVIDENCE, then the case is closed. Too bad. Its mute.

You'd have to be pretty dumb or arrogant to be shooting up with others just sitting around. Ok I can see you doping, but only with one or two people knowing, not scores of people (who themselves have been found guilty and have a clear conflict of interest).
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:31 PM   #63
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeyz View Post
If he never failed any drug test, frankly I find it wrong for this to have dragged on this long, Perhaps he did dope, yet that was NEVER established factually. There is no material basis for this having been pursued this long.

"Armstrong, who has branded the USADA investigation "an unconstitutional witch hunt," had gone to court in a bid to block the agency's proceedings.
But on Monday a federal judge in his hometown of Austin dismissed his lawsuit, leaving Armstrong until midnight on Thursday to tell USADA whether or not he would seek arbitration.

USADA maintains that Armstrong used banned substances -- including the blood-booster EPO, steroids and blood transfusions -- dating back to 1996, and said 10 of his former team-mates were ready to testify against him."

My question is where is the evidence apart from others'accusations?

Now this is troubling, "USADA said it also had blood tests taken from 2009-2010, when Armstrong briefly came out of retirement to compete internationally again, that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."

Oscar Pereiro -- handed the 2006 Tour victory after winner US Floyd Landis stated, "I'm convinced that the riders who spoke out against Armstrong have done so on condition that they won't be punished and that they won't have their winnings withdrawn. Is that right?"

My position: even if Armstrong or a tennis player is thought or believed or it is speculated or assumed to have doped and has been accused by others after the fact, if there is NO EVIDENCE, then the case is closed. Too bad. Its mute.

You'd have to be pretty dumb or arrogant to be shooting up with others just sitting around. Ok I can see you doping, but only with one or two people knowing, not scores of people (who themselves have been found guilty and have a clear conflict of interest).
there's an specific discussion about armstrong's case in NT (i've taken part there as well) so please do post your opinions about that there and keep this solely about tennis.

thanks
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:57 PM   #64
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

It's impossible to strip somebody of their titles unless you can prove that they were won under the influence of drugs/ or whatever the hell the dopers do to stay ahead of the pack. If you can prove that player X won tournament Y whilst under the influence of performance enhancers then by all means strip them of THAT title and prize money and any titles and monies won in the following 2 year period...However you can't just award those titles to the runners up as you can never know who along the the trail the drugster's list casualties might have gone on to win those tournaments. It's not like athletics where it is obvious that but for a drugged up winner, the 2nd placed athlete would have gone on to win the race....

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:02 PM   #65
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Also, we have no idea how rotten the system actually is. They could be attributing the title to another doper, just what is likely to happen on the Armstrong case.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:08 PM   #66
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

There's no Lance Armstrong in tennis.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:18 PM   #67
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Puerta, Canas, Korda all faced bans for doping violations...all pleaded innocence of course.

Last edited by Allez : 08-24-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:35 PM   #68
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

If journeymen like Odesnik are taking HGH, what can we say about the rest of the tour? he only got caught because he was an idiot.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:39 PM   #69
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

I well remember Davydenko losing to a certified, CAUGHT doper in the 2005 semifinal of RG. If I'm not mistaken said Doper got an immediate ban and his name/points were scratched from the ultimate results list/ATP rankings (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Unfortunately it didn't bring Davydenko any of the deserved accolades, as it should have been HIM playing the RG final against Nadal that year - perhaps never mind, as he probably would have lost anyway, but still it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:43 PM   #70
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I well remember Davydenko losing to a certified, CAUGHT doper in the 2005 semifinal of RG. If I'm not mistaken said Doper got an immediate ban and his name/points were scratched from the ultimate results list/ATP rankings (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Unfortunately it didn't bring Davydenko any of the deserved accolades, as it should have been HIM playing the RG final against Nadal that year - perhaps never mind, as he probably would have lost anyway, but still it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Isn't Davy also a cheater though? Like with match fixing?
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:46 PM   #71
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by redshift36188 View Post
There is just no way around this, any competitive system will have these kinds of problems, specially when there is money on the line.

In the end, those who didn't dope will be proud of their achievements (even if minor) while those who did won't feel so comfortable with themselves.
I don't thinks so- a lot of the logic is that everybody else does it, so they think: if I win doping then I still won and am proud of my achievements because everyone else was doping.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:47 PM   #72
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

This is an interesting question, but quite a complex and troubling issue, which to me, leads to more questions and thoughts.

The below assumes that the sport is prohibiting the use of peds.

What should be done from a ethical/moral standpoint to the guilty party?
It seems obvious that ethically, that the doper, once found guilty, should be exposed publicly and punished accordingly to deter more doping. If a high ranked player is exposed and punished, the deterrent will be even greater, showing that every player will be subject to being exposed. A strategy of only exposing low ranked players simply makes the player seem like a scapegoat and leads to "protected player" claims.

What will probably be done because of the "damage" it could cause to the sport?

It is likely that the situation will be handled as quietly as possible. I would doubt that it will just be swept under the rug.
Instead, the player will be told to take a hiatus from the sport and attribute it to injury or health issues. Depending on the severity found, the player might be "silently banned" for a certain amount of time, or perhaps for life and asked to retire. I would hope that the punishment would be equal for all, no matter the player's rank or importance. It may be that the records will be not be changed as questions could be raised, or perhaps they may be changed much later.

Which entity should be ultimately in charge of testing and follow-up of failed tests and finally punishment?

I believe to ensure integrity, it should be a separate body from the entities that run the sport (ATP, ITF), and autonomous, but they should be in communication with those entities and agree to a certain way of handling the process.

We have an example in cycling from perhaps which we can learn something that leads to more questions.

1. When there is sufficient evidence to bring forward a legal accusation, it seems obvious that it needs to be done. However, even if the player were ultimately found to be innocent, the mere accusation and lengthy process that ensues can be just as damaging to the player and the sport. What can be done to protect the player, and the sport, while maintaining the integrity of the game?


I think in this situation there needs to be a sort of "grand jury" type of investigation/trial procedure, that is done behind
closed doors. Once out in the public domain, the damage is done. Now once the player has been found guilty, I think the proper thing to do is to make the announcement. Yes, some may say that the sport might be "damaged" to an extent, but the risk of it being covered up and found out later will make the sport lose integrity even faster.

2. There are also issues in which testimony can be trusted. Should anecdotal evidence like "I saw the dope in the refrigerator when I was over there at a party" be taken seriously? Or should evidence be limited to only that produced by testing?


I think it should start with testing, unless there is relatively clear evidence (video, taped conversations). There are too many player associations that may have axes to grind. In short, it should be legal evidence.

3. Testing technology is almost always behind the latest designer drugs. As new tests are developed old tests that were once "passed" may fail in the future. What should and can be done to a player where the failure is found and the player is found guilty?


One could attempt to get the money, if the player still has it. As others have pointed out, it would be almost impossible to redistribute it fairly to the remaining players. Perhaps whatever money is recovered could go to a charity designated by the first player who was beaten by the doper, or split among charities for all players beaten by the doper. Trophies should be returned to the tournament. The matter of points and titles being subtracted from the player's record is a tricky one, if the intent is to punish the player silently to "protect the sport", it becomes obvious that things don't add up if they are stripped. If that is not a consideration, then those things can be stripped and not re-awarded.

As I said, it is a complex issue, but it should be tackled properly. I've given some of my thoughts for whatever they are worth. I'm sure many of you will have differing opinions. But perhaps there is already a process in use of which most of us are unaware.

Respectfully,
masterclass
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:58 PM   #73
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

IMO, he should be stripped of his title(and the trophy). But, the title should not be awarded to the runner up. The RUP remains the RUP with no winner of the tournament. In tennis a player needs to win the championship match to actually get the title. You beat the player on the other side of the net, not the entire field. A RUP in tennis cannot be compared to a second position in a sport like cycling or golf.

I strongly disagree with some posters in this thread who think that no action should be taken. That is just insane. If the players are "allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies", as Redeyz suggests, the players who used PED's would get a huge advantage over players who don't. It would reach a stage where every player would have to dope to compete at the big stages. Also, the sport would also lose a lot of it's charm. Most fans would not want to watch two roid machines slug it out, where one Player A hits the ball at 270 kmph and Player B scrambles around like a possessed man and return it with some juice.(Exaggerated to make a point)
That being said, I would not be surprised to find out that the ITF/ATP has hidden instances of doping, something similar to the Agassi incident. If any multiple GS winner(not pointed fingers here) were to be exposed as a doper, tennis would lose.

If a player is found guilty of doping, he should only be stripped of the titles he won during the period where he was caught. It would be unfair to take away all his titles. Similar to Alberto Contador's case. AFAIK, he was stripped of his 2010 TdF, but not his 2007 one.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Gee, I wonder what is abraxas' agenda in the OP

Give it a rest, man. You like a certain right hander, and dislike a certain left hander.

We get it. Mods, does this thread count as a doping accusation? Thinly veiled, but anyone who knows anything knows what's going on here.
Don't be dramatic. Yes, there are obvious underlying comments from abraxas, but whatever, the actual question itself is actually something interesting and hasn't really been brought up.

Finding out someone was a doper is certainly very tough in tennis. Like was said earlier, it fucks everything from the first match onward. It certainly isn't like other sports such as cycling or running where you can just take him out and bump up everyone behind him. One day I hope drug testing reaches new levels of innovation, consistency and accuracy because as is it seems rather easy to get away with so much..

However, I do have to say, while doping is certainly cheating and by no way would I advocate doping, but for a sport like tennis, does it actually help? I mean as my private coach would always say, tennis is 80% mental, so no matter how many years of doping you have, if you can't mentally win an important or if you don't have good technique or whatever, you aren't going to win. So while doping is certainly a serious offense, honestly, if a player couldn't beat a doper, I doubt it had anything to do with the person being a doper, but rather one just being mentally stronger or just a better tennis player. If I remember correctly, back in 2007 when Roddick was asked about Canas' return to the game, Roddick said something like "it wasn't like he didn't know how to play tennis" and I think that is exactly right about dopers. So again just to reiterate my point, while doping certainly is cheating and any player caught doping should be punished heavily, I don't think it really truly has a great bearing on our sport of tennis as it does nothing for your techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength which are all much more important than the physical aspects doping can "help" with, so any player losing to a doper IMO has nothing to do with the doper being a doper (unless something way out of the norm is evident like the guy is hitting 200 MPH serves, lol..)
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:04 PM   #75
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
This is an interesting question, but quite a complex and troubling issue, which to me, leads to more questions and thoughts.

The below assumes that the sport is prohibiting the use of peds.

What should be done from a ethical/moral standpoint to the guilty party?
It seems obvious that ethically, that the doper, once found guilty, should be exposed publicly and punished accordingly to deter more doping. If a high ranked player is exposed and punished, the deterrent will be even greater, showing that every player will be subject to being exposed. A strategy of only exposing low ranked players simply makes the player seem like a scapegoat and leads to "protected player" claims.

What will probably be done because of the "damage" it could cause to the sport?

It is likely that the situation will be handled as quietly as possible. I would doubt that it will just be swept under the rug.
Instead, the player will be told to take a hiatus from the sport and attribute it to injury or health issues. Depending on the severity found, the player might be "silently banned" for a certain amount of time, or perhaps for life and asked to retire. I would hope that the punishment would be equal for all, no matter the player's rank or importance. It may be that the records will be not be changed as questions could be raised, or perhaps they may be changed much later.

Which entity should be ultimately in charge of testing and follow-up of failed tests and finally punishment?

I believe to ensure integrity, it should be a separate body from the entities that run the sport (ATP, ITF), and autonomous, but they should be in communication with those entities and agree to a certain way of handling the process.

We have an example in cycling from perhaps which we can learn something that leads to more questions.

1. When there is sufficient evidence to bring forward a legal accusation, it seems obvious that it needs to be done. However, even if the player were ultimately found to be innocent, the mere accusation and lengthy process that ensues can be just as damaging to the player and the sport. What can be done to protect the player, and the sport, while maintaining the integrity of the game?


I think in this situation there needs to be a sort of "grand jury" type of investigation/trial procedure, that is done behind
closed doors. Once out in the public domain, the damage is done. Now once the player has been found guilty, I think the proper thing to do is to make the announcement. Yes, some may say that the sport might be "damaged" to an extent, but the risk of it being covered up and found out later will make the sport lose integrity even faster.

2. There are also issues in which testimony can be trusted. Should anecdotal evidence like "I saw the dope in the refrigerator when I was over there at a party" be taken seriously? Or should evidence be limited to only that produced by testing?


I think it should start with testing, unless there is relatively clear evidence (video, taped conversations). There are too many player associations that may have axes to grind. In short, it should be legal evidence.

3. Testing technology is almost always behind the latest designer drugs. As new tests are developed old tests that were once "passed" may fail in the future. What should and can be done to a player where the failure is found and the player is found guilty?


One could attempt to get the money, if the player still has it. As others have pointed out, it would be almost impossible to redistribute it fairly to the remaining players. Perhaps whatever money is recovered could go to a charity designated by the first player who was beaten by the doper, or split among charities for all players beaten by the doper. Trophies should be returned to the tournament. The matter of points and titles being subtracted from the player's record is a tricky one, if the intent is to punish the player silently to "protect the sport", it becomes obvious that things don't add up if they are stripped. If that is not a consideration, then those things can be stripped and not re-awarded.

As I said, it is a complex issue, but it should be tackled properly. I've given some of my thoughts for whatever they are worth. I'm sure many of you will have differing opinions. But perhaps there is already a process in use of which most of us are unaware.

Respectfully,
masterclass


I actually agree with everything you said.
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