[duong]

Originally Posted by scoobs

The problem with having no "definitive" outcome is that there is no closure on all this. People will go on believing what they choose to believe and there's is nothing official to provide the best answer that can be found.

There's a definitive outcome, by the USADA. The news yesterday is only that Armstrong will stop the lawyers' war. That he would not confess the truth was certain

However, the WADA would have liked something more public as a trial.

Anyway, it's good that the USADA managed to make their work until the end without the UCI's interference.

I can't believe many of the reactions I read in this thread There are far far more than enough evidence about Armstrong : just read Mjau's post.

And so far there's nothing about Bolt

I hope the USADA will manage to make as many things public as possible.

[IOFH]

Originally Posted by 2003

So is Bolt, and bolt is destroying olympic medalists and former WR holders, not just mid eventers. Ahem Justin Gatlin Ahem.

I meant Armstrong was beating proven dopers at the time it was known they were using, whereas it's not the same with Bolt. I'm not saying Gatlin or others aren't doping today (who knows) but just think that might have something to do with the difference in attitude towards them.

So 3 out of last 14 TDF wins are legitimate at this point, then?

[vincayou]

IT WAS ABOUT TIME !

Well nothing new under the sun, everybody knew (in France at least) that he was doped. Unfortunately, doping has killed interest in cycling for a lot of people like me a long time ago. Even if they strip him of his titles, you would have to go very far in the pecking order to find a clean guy (probably around the 50th place).

There has always been doping but since EPO one just can't win the TdF without being doped (sorry brittish fans). EPO started with the Indurain years, and though I liked the guy he was probably on it. Lemond was probably the last clean rider and he described very well the turn in the early 90s when from one year to the next, he couldn't follow anymore some riders (and not one, more like 20) in the mountain despite showing no real decline in his performances (in training, etc...).

And for those who say "but he was the best amonst dopers", well, nobody knows how much dope they all used or who had access to the best product, and EPO or other drugs can have different effect on different people. All we know for years is that Armstrong was very professional about doping.

Unfortunately, this year, they rode the TdF as fast as in the Arsmstrong years. But maybe Wiggins, Froome and Co have very special bikes and talent hehehehehehe !

[Looner]

Originally Posted by vincayou

IT WAS ABOUT TIME !

Unfortunately, this year, they rode the TdF as fast as in the Arsmstrong years. But maybe Wiggins, Froome and Co have very special bikes and talent hehehehehehe !

I agree it was about time but for your last point. Haven't they been reducing the total distance of the TdF for some years now. I mean not in recent editions but it used to be ~4000-4500 kms whilst nowadays it's more like 3500 kms.

[GSMnadal]

So stupid. When they take them away, ALL of the #2's are also dopers. Guys like Ulrich, Klöden, Basso, Zulle. The same goes for all the #3's. So, who are they going to give these tour victories to? To the the #2's because they weren't caught during those races? Ridiculous.

I don't care he was doped, everyone was back then, it was an even playing field. It would be hypocritical to give these races to proven dopers. Lance won them.

[duong]

Originally Posted by Looner

I agree it was about time but for your last point. Haven't they been reducing the total distance of the TdF for some years now. I mean not in recent editions but it used to be ~4000-4500 kms whilst nowadays it's more like 3500 kms.

it was before Armstrong, I guess, but anyway the measurements Vincayou talked about were made in slopes.

It's possible to measure the amount of energy which was displayed during the slope, there are specialists for that, and it was not normal this year again contrary to last year, even though it was a little bit less than in Armstrong-Pantani's time if I remember correctly.

[duong]

Originally Posted by GSMnadal

So stupid. When they take them away, ALL of the #2's are also dopers. Guys like Ulrich, Klöden, Basso, Zulle. The same goes for all the #3's. So, who are they going to give these tour victories to? To the the #2's because they weren't caught during those races? Ridiculous.

I don't think they will give the win to anybody.

But no it's quite sure that cyclists were not "equal in their doping", Armstrong taught a lot to his teammates which means that they didn't know about it as well . No equality is possible in that field : there will always be some who are more advanced than others, like in mechanic competitions.

Anyway so far it's only the USADA who has declared that he would lose his titles. The UCI and the Tour de France's organizer (an organization related to the newspaper l'Equipe ) have not said anything so far.

[Tommy_Vercetti]

This makes me so sick that I won't bother going into a long post, but as I mentioned in previous posts, how are any of the now proclaimed winners going to be considered valid if the testing is now irrelevant? There have plenty of winners who were caught or later admitted doping. This USADA witch-hunt has been among the most shameful in history.

[Dmitry Verdasco]

Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti

This makes me so sick that I won't bother going into a long post, but as I mentioned in previous posts, how are any of the now proclaimed winners going to be considered valid if the testing is now irrelevant? There have plenty of winners who were caught or later admitted doping. This USADA witch-hunt has been among the most shameful in history.

Why you mad, though?

Originally Posted by GSMnadal

I don't care he was doped, everyone was back then, it was an even playing field. It would be hypocritical to give these races to proven dopers. Lance won them.

Are you for real?

[rocketassist]

Originally Posted by Har-Tru

Nothing has changed between yesterday and today. Why would this make a difference?

The only thing that sets cycling apart from other sports like tennis is that cycling actually fights doping.

Originally Posted by Echoes

Yes, me. Is there a particular reason why I shouldn't? Has something big happened that we didn't know already? No.

The amount of shit it gets off the media and fans of other sports always kicking the boot in. There's been a lot of it today. Other people saying 'why do you follow such a drug infested sport' and stuff like that. Scandals like this aren't nice.

Having always been suspicious of Armstrong, I'm glad he's going to get what he deserves. Them TDF titles are best just left vacant cause there's hardly any definitively clean riders at that time. Ullrich? Basso? As doped as Lance was.

[Har-Tru]

Are we to believe that Lance Armstrong, the ferocious, bloodthirsty Lance Armstrong, he who never gives up, decided to retreat and risk losing his most precious prizes knowing he is innocent?

Let's not fool ourselves. The only reason Armstrong has run away, tail between legs, is because he'd rather surrender than having his numerous and horrendous mischiefs exposed to the entire world.

And I'd say it's the best thing he could do. As it is, he won't fool any cycling fan who is reasonably informed about the matter, but he's managed to convince some of the casual fans and the broader population that he maybe, just maybe, is right and he's only the helpless victim of a global conspiracy.

[Kolya]

Originally Posted by scarecrows

you make it look like those spanish riders were clean

Well they haven't been linked with doping for at least from my knowledge.

Trying to be objective...

[Looner]

Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti

This makes me so sick that I won't bother going into a long post, but as I mentioned in previous posts, how are any of the now proclaimed winners going to be considered valid if the testing is now irrelevant? There have plenty of winners who were caught or later admitted doping. This USADA witch-hunt has been among the most shameful in history.

Was it shameful when they did it with Marion Jones? There's nothing shameful about exposing this arrongant cheater known as Armstrong. He had such a mightier-than-thou attitude all these years despite doping. It was almost as bad as some of those bankers.

[abraxas21]

well, well, well, seems that the french were right all along.

i wonder if another strong man who's triumphed in france a lot in a sport that's highly familiar to us will get caught in 10 more years...

[GSMnadal]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Verdasco

Why you mad, though?



Are you for real?

Uhm, yeah? If everybody doped, who cares? It's still so impressive what he did, it were different times. People are so focused on the word 'doping', and have made it into a witch-hunt, they value 'the rules' more than common sense. Just let the old legends be, it's guys like Armstrong that inspire kids of today to be able to do great things and start cycling. Not the guys in labcoats, who catch them because they took a forbidden substance (which all of his competitors took as well) and what for sure wasn't the only reason this man won 7 straight TDFs.

Now you destroy everything, you can't point out a winner because all the others were cheats as well. All you create now is a lot of black pages in the history books. Focus on today, right now the sport is clean (for sure there are dopers, but they seem to be outnumberd and are getting caught), now doping would give an unfair advantage. But back then? No.