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View Poll Results: Who will win the 2012 year-end H2H?

Djokovic will take the lead 31 50.82%
Federer will claim his trophy 25 40.98%
They will end in a draw, for the first time 1 1.64%
I don't know. But this should be an official ATP award, it's amazing. 4 6.56%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-20-2012, 04:55 PM   #541
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
you have still not answered Litotes' question about what you said about players in Fed's prime being mental midgets and chokers except Safin, and where you mentioned Hewitt's name among others.

It reminds me of Murray who some time ago had the same kind of comments about Fed's opponents not "daring to oppose" in Fed's prime.

But well Murray has more talent than all of Fed's opponents in his prime imo, except maybe Safin and of course Nadal, but as for the mental ability to oppose Fed, he surely has not shown more abilities than Fed's prime opponents, quite the opposite.

And when Fed played at his best against him, he could only say in the end "he was too good".
I missed it and i will responde, but u have the point about Murray he is more talented then players in Fed era( bar Safin, Nadal ) but as them he didnt showed any mental power. Even Tsonga and Berdich managed to beat Federer in slams and he never did. He had his chances at SW this year really good chances, Federer did play good but i still think Murray let that go because he is mental midget. He showed actually same abilites as Fed opponents in his era, talented good players that are unable mentali to beat Federer even if they game-wise stand better at court in some moments.

I give u example with Nole and Nadal, they are really talented players and that is just underestemating thing to say, they are great players, and talent wise Murray isnt far away from them. But biggest thing that devides players in Fed era and this one are Nole Nadal and maybe few more and not by talent but by mental power. Noles saving matchpoints in USO 2010 and 2011 and goes beating Federer in process and coming by losing 2-0 in sets, that coudnt be seen in Fed era. Why? Because non was mentali even ready to think they can come back from sets down against Federer, let alone saving match points in process. Same goes at Tsonga being super clucth at SW 2011 against Federer or determination of Potro in 2009 USO.

Federer doesnt excpect those kind of things, ppl not surrendering while he is leading. He never was tested like that in his era.

Anyways i just think mentali this players are much better atm and this era is strong. Compare with era that is coming, u will say this was golden era of tennis.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:57 PM   #542
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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OK. And tell me who in Fed era wasnt a mental midget on big events like slams? Thugbandian? Tommy Haas? Hewitt lol? Please remind me who had a chance not a choke and atleast steal 1 slam from Olderer bar Safin and ofc Nadal? No one lol. All chronic chokers. They should kneel to DelPo for using the choke Fed gave him .Fed era players would probably choke back lol.
When u say choke , do u mean in general or against fed . Not able to seize the opportunity.
Thugbandian. Beat Prime federer at AO 03 and Primr fed in USO 03. He was 5-0 against fed.
Hewitt. Hewitt owned the S&V of the previous era. He was 7-0 against fed.
Beating him from 2 sets down in DC.
Haas was oft injured with numerous shoulder injury.
Or chokers in general. Hewitt has 2 slams .
Thugbandian beat fed in 5 to win WTF .
However when u are a bh based player u are not as successful as fh based players so the propensity to " get tight " is higher.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:59 PM   #543
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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You called Hewitt "midget", put in doubt his fighting spirit and now say that I`m ridiculous? Ok, I got it. No questions anymore.
U got me wrong sir. Hewitt was midget against Fed in slams. Tell me how many times did he beat federer in slams during Federe prime? I dont doubt his fight spirit at all, but he never stood a chance agains federer in his prime. So calling him a big fed rival is just wrong. Only real rivals Fed had and still have are Nadal and Nole.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:07 PM   #544
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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When u say choke , do u mean in general or against fed . Not able to seize the opportunity.
Thugbandian. Beat Prime federer at AO 03 and Primr fed in USO 03. He was 5-0 against fed.
Hewitt. Hewitt owned the S&V of the previous era. He was 7-0 against fed.
Beating him from 2 sets down in DC.
Haas was oft injured with numerous shoulder injury.
Or chokers in general. Hewitt has 2 slams .
Thugbandian beat fed in 5 to win WTF .
However when u are a bh based player u are not as successful as fh based players so the propensity to " get tight " is higher.
WHen i said choke i ment in general. Tho you have the point, but dont u find it strange that Hewitt and Thugbandian suddenly who owned Fed untill 2003 from that moment on never beat Federer again on slam? Did Federer rised so much and changed this game from that 2004 and those 2 failed badly? Federer in 2003 was still young and his prime began at 2004, he started winning slams his confidence went sky high. But still u cant say those 2 after beating Federer so many times in past couldnt win a slam. They arent less talented they were just choke artist, who preformed well on all tournaments bar GS, and when it comes to big stage bye bye guts.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:08 PM   #545
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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I missed it and i will responde, but u have the point about Murray he is more talented then players in Fed era( bar Safin, Nadal ) but as them he didnt showed any mental power. Even Tsonga and Berdich managed to beat Federer in slams and he never did. He had his chances at SW this year really good chances, Federer did play good but i still think Murray let that go because he is mental midget. He showed actually same abilites as Fed opponents in his era, talented good players that are unable mentali to beat Federer even if they game-wise stand better at court in some moments.

I give u example with Nole and Nadal, they are really talented players and that is just underestemating thing to say, they are great players, and talent wise Murray isnt far away from them. But biggest thing that devides players in Fed era and this one are Nole Nadal and maybe few more and not by talent but by mental power. Noles saving matchpoints in USO 2010 and 2011 and goes beating Federer in process and coming by losing 2-0 in sets, that coudnt be seen in Fed era. Why? Because non was mentali even ready to think they can come back from sets down against Federer, let alone saving match points in process. Same goes at Tsonga being super clucth at SW 2011 against Federer or determination of Potro in 2009 USO.

Federer doesnt excpect those kind of things, ppl not surrendering while he is leading. He never was tested like that in his era.

Anyways i just think mentali this players are much better atm and this era is strong. Compare with era that is coming, u will say this was golden era of tennis.
Thanks for the explanation of what you think, even though the definition of choking is more precise, as Litotes said

I disagree with your opinion that the mental thing is a key here to separate generations. I mean, Djokovic and Nadal are a very special case, both in terms of their level of play and their mental, and I will just take them away.

As for the other players, Tsonga and Del Potro lost many more matches to Fed than they won, just like Fed's past opponents, and despite facing a Federer who is not as good as the one the past opponents did face. I admire what Del Potro did mentally in that USO 2009 final, but one match doesn't make a rule as far as the mental is concerned. And when you have Tsonga's serve, it's easier to be solid as Tsonga was in that Wimbledon quarter ... but solidity is not the first thing which strikes me about Tsonga. Berdych also displayed some good mental abilities ... But well, no I don't think Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Haas, Gonzalez, Ljubicic ... lacked mental abilities in general and against Fed in particular. Tsonga or Berdych wouldn't have done better imo.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:09 PM   #546
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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I missed it and i will responde, but u have the point about Murray he is more talented then players in Fed era( bar Safin, Nadal ) but as them he didnt showed any mental power. Even Tsonga and Berdich managed to beat Federer in slams and he never did. He had his chances at SW this year really good chances, Federer did play good but i still think Murray let that go because he is mental midget. He showed actually same abilites as Fed opponents in his era, talented good players that are unable mentali to beat Federer even if they game-wise stand better at court in some moments.

I give u example with Nole and Nadal, they are really talented players and that is just underestemating thing to say, they are great players, and talent wise Murray isnt far away from them. But biggest thing that devides players in Fed era and this one are Nole Nadal and maybe few more and not by talent but by mental power. Noles saving matchpoints in USO 2010 and 2011 and goes beating Federer in process and coming by losing 2-0 in sets, that coudnt be seen in Fed era. Why? Because non was mentali even ready to think they can come back from sets down against Federer, let alone saving match points in process. Same goes at Tsonga being super clucth at SW 2011 against Federer or determination of Potro in 2009 USO.

Federer doesnt excpect those kind of things, ppl not surrendering while he is leading. He never was tested like that in his era.

Anyways i just think mentali this players are much better atm and this era is strong. Compare with era that is coming, u will say this was golden era of tennis.
Nadull is part of Feds era 04-07. His era from 08-10.
And Noles era 2011 till present . Speaking slam , domination #1 etc.A players Era is different from Prime.
Feds era is probably 2002-12 or around that. His Prime 21-25 or 03-07 I think what u are referring to.
Nadull was winning titles and more successfully in Feds Prime N his. In Novak era or currently is is no knees nadull.
Glutinous Novak is cannon fudder .
Gluten free Novak is good but it lasted 1 year.
In short apart from gluten free Novak is practically the same from 03-10.
However in Feds era the courts were "more" varied and a varied " top ten"
S&V henman n Phillouposis was top ten in Feds Prime.
No variety today.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #547
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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WHen i said choke i ment in general. Tho you have the point, but dont u find it strange that Hewitt and Thugbandian suddenly who owned Fed untill 2003 from that moment on never beat Federer again on slam? Did Federer rised so much and changed this game from that 2004 and those 2 failed badly?
Fed's level improved dramatically from the Masters Cup 2003, it was a shock quite like Djokovic's 2011, except that it kept on lasting for longer.

Meanwhile some of these players had problems.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:31 PM   #548
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Fed's level improved dramatically from the Masters Cup 2003, it was a shock quite like Djokovic's 2011, except that it kept on lasting for longer.

Meanwhile some of these players had problems.
This.

And to say Fed's opponents choked is being biased to me.

I can do the same with Novak's great run: at 2011 AO he faced Murray who is a mental midget and always loses GS finals, at the USO Fed choked 2 match points, Nadal had him on the ropes at 4-2 in the fifth at the AO 2012 but choked it badly missing a backhand pass with all the court open. Nole's won cause he faced mental midgets or players who choked badly against him.

You see how it can be easy?
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:38 PM   #549
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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This.

And to say Fed's opponents choked is being biased to me.

I can do the same with Novak's great run: at 2011 AO he faced Murray who is a mental midget and always loses GS finals, at the USO Fed choked 2 match points, Nadal had him on the ropes at 4-2 in the fifth at the AO 2012 but choked it badly missing a backhand pass with all the court open. Nole's won cause he faced mental midgets or players who choked badly against him.

You see how it can be easy?
U cannot call player who won 17 slam mental midget same goes for Nadal. Murray is choker.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:42 PM   #550
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U cannot call player who won 17 slam mental midget same goes for Nadal. Murray is choker.
I am calling Murray the mental midget, and I am saying both Fed and Nadal choked badly. Fed missed an easy forehand on second match point, Rafa missed an easy backhand to go up 4-2 40-15 against an opponent who was on the ropes.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #551
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I am calling Murray the mental midget, and I am saying both Fed and Nadal choked badly. Fed missed an easy forehand on second match point, Rafa missed an easy backhand to go up 4-2 40-15 against an opponent who was on the ropes.
We can go like this until tomorrow. Nole has beaten Federer before at slams and vice versa. With either one of them playing good or bad or some1 choking. But being enable 1 player in Fed era to rise and distrupt him is enigma for me. With exception of Nadal. Is that choke of players for many years? Is it case of them being subpar players compare to Federer?
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #552
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

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U got me wrong sir. Hewitt was midget against Fed in slams. Tell me how many times did he beat federer in slams during Federe prime? I dont doubt his fight spirit at all, but he never stood a chance agains federer in his prime. So calling him a big fed rival is just wrong. Only real rivals Fed had and still have are Nadal and Nole.
Stopit! Hewitt is no mental midget against Federer in slams! After 2003 Federer neared his best possible physical form and got some mental stability. Hewitt couldn't make such improvements because he was physically less talented and already very close to his best possible form. Mentally he was already superb and technically he was no match for Federer, but those things are not for everybody to learn...

Further there is no denying that Federer had a dip in physical form at the start of 2008 with the mono, and although he kept working to get back in top shape he has had some little setbacks with his back etc and couldn't always train the way he wanted. so in his 2008-2012 period his physical form wasn't as consistent as during the 2003-2007 years. Hewitt always had to play a physically close to 100% Federer during 2003-2007

Besides that it is also very important to note that Hewitts (and also Roddicks) best surfaces are very fast surfaces, just like Federer. Nadal and Djokovic are better on slower surfaces. If we assume Wimbledon lost some of his quicknes especially in the second week and the Uso was slow last year for whatever reason. They haven't had that many wins against Federer on fast hardcourts or fast grass, maybe not too much opportunities..

Anyway it was a bigger task for Hewitt and Roddick I think.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #553
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We can go like this until tomorrow. Nole has beaten Federer before at slams and vice versa. With either one of them playing good or bad or some1 choking. But being enable 1 player in Fed era to rise and distrupt him is enigma for me. With exception of Nadal. Is that choke of players for many years? Is it case of them being subpar players compare to Federer?
I know.

What I am saying is that Hewitt and nalby owned Fed back in the day, so you can't accuse them of not beating him cause they were mental midgets, it's just Fed at some point became too good for them. Hewitt came back from two sets and a break down to beat him, I wouldn't call him a mental midget.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:00 PM   #554
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

Nalbandian fits the mental midget label far more than Hewitt. He had a good record against Federer, including wins in big matches, because he is a mercurial talent, nothing to do with his mental toughness. If anything, he did well despite his tendency to choke; that TMC final in 2005 for instance, although a great match, was very, very close to becoming a choke for the ages from Nalby.

Hewitt was very tough mentally, his problem was that he lacked the game to trouble Federer, unlike Nalby. He had nothing to hurt Federer with.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:02 PM   #555
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Default Re: Endless Djokovic/Federer Debates - Year End Number 1

Hewitt burned out early due to injury. His game required a lot of physical endurance. At his best, he deflected power like a mirror- the ultimate counter-striker.
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