[Snowwy]

Armstrong was targeted originally by other jealous American riders, Greg Lemond springs right to mind.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by Taejin

The point and the fact is, he's not proven as cheater/doper, therefore people can't draw runs fast = dope analogies.

That is what I said in my first post here ...

But with all respect, why didn't you say it that way in your first post. WHen you say "talent is not something you inject", I really find it a naive comment.

We are now living in a world in which everything is possible, even making a race horse out of a donkey. The doped cyclists of the 90's are evidence for it.

You realized that I never referred to Bolt, took a more global viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Snowwy

Armstrong was targeted originally by other jealous American riders, Greg Lemond springs right to mind.

There was no jealousy. The accusations proved to be right. The Texan is BUSTED. Can that be accepted once and for all? Six positive tests, is that not enough?

LeMond had his flaws but was probably clean. And many many many riders denounced doping in the peloton long before him, all right. LeMond popped up very late.

[buddyholly]

Originally Posted by Echoes

There was no jealousy. The accusations proved to be right. The Texan is BUSTED. Can that be accepted once and for all? Six positive tests, is that not enough?
.

Is there any more evidence for this than a report in L'Equipe? If not, then he is hardly busted.

[Purple Rainbow]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

Is there any more evidence for this than a report in L'Equipe? If not, then he is hardly busted.

Confessions from mutiple teammates, improbable wattages on climbs and common sense?

Right now, Armstrong is fighting USADA's (American anti doping agency) right to investigate and punish American athletes who have doped, claiming that USADA has no jurisdiction in anti-doping matters.

This man will stop at nothing to retain a clean image that nobody believes in anyway and to keep titles that have become meaningless. If push comes to shove, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to take down the entire sport with him.

[buddyholly]

Originally Posted by Purple Rainbow

Confessions from mutiple teammates, improbable wattages on climbs and common sense?

Not really bankable evidence.

[Mjau!]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

Is there any more evidence for this than a report in L'Equipe? If not, then he is hardly busted.

You are such an ignorant tool. What you dismiss as "a report in L'Equipe" constitutes hard scientific evidence of doping.

Michael Ashenden
Fri, 04/03/2009 - 1:57am by Andy Shen

"So there is no doubt in my mind he (Lance Armstrong) took EPO during the '99 Tour."

Dr. Michael Ashenden began his career as an exercise physiologist with the Australian Institute of Sport. After assisting in the development of an EPO test for the Sydney Olympic Games, he left the AIS to focus on battling blood doping. In 2005, Dr. Ashenden was among of group of scientists who questioned the validity of a physiological study on Lance Armstrong, a dispute that led him to serve as an expert witness in an arbitration case involving Armstrong and a bonus payment for winning the Tour. Dr. Ashenden kindly agreed to speak with us and shed some new light on that controversy. He also helped us analyze the 6 positives from Armstrong's '99 Tour samples with a level of detail never before made public.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...chael-ashenden

More:

USADA letter to Armstrong
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...arging0613.pdf

An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/lan...ntmessage.html

SI reports new information in the case against Lance Armstrong
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ong/index.html

Excerpt from LA CONFIDENTIAL - The Secrets of Lance Armstrong
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/35231...k#post_2884700

Ferrari, Del Moral and Marti banned for life in US Postal case
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferr...us-postal-case

[Mjau!]

Last week Jakob Mørkeberg was quoted by the Danish news outlet DR Sport as saying that he had concerns about blood values posted by Lance Armstrong on the Livestrong.com website (link to external website opens in new window). The Bispebjerg Hospital anti-doping researcher has worked on many scientific studies, including a 2008 paper co-written with Belhage and Damsgaard entitled Changes in Blood Profiles during Tour de France 2007, and stated that expected trends over a three week race were not seen in the Texan’s data.

"What we know from our research is that during periods of hard activity, like in the Tour de France, we normally see a drop in these blood values. We don't see this with Armstrong," he told DR Sport.

He elaborated on this when speaking to Cyclingnews. “His blood profile contradicts what we see and what we know from international studies during the last few decades,” he said in a phone interview. “His blood values are not acting as we would expect, so that is highly unusual.” (see sidebar)

Mørkeberg has just finished a Ph. D. dissertation entitled Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples, and is working on a method to trace this method of doping.

His aforementioned Tour de France study catalogued seven riders in the 2007 race, revealing lower hemoglobin and lower hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells in whole blood) on day 19 when compared to their pre-Tour reading. On average hemoglobin dropped 11.5% and hematocrit fell by 12.1%, keeping in line with physiological expectations.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...levels-debated

Armstrong's Bio Passport Critic Speaks

AS: The other thing you find strange is the reticulocyte count, that it's too low, and that's indicating that he's not producing his own red blood cells?

JM: If you look at his values during the year up to the Tour, the reticulocyte values are pretty much what you would expect, around 1%. There are analytical variations and biological variations to that parameter as for any other parameter. Then at the beginning of the Tour, it's half, .5%, which is producing half the red blood cells that you would expect. The reason why you get a decrease in your reticulocyte values is when you have an increased amount of hemoglobin. Your body does not have to produce as much as usual.

http://velocitynation.com/content/in...-critic-speaks

Armstrong's values at the 2009 Tour de France:

7/2, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 42.8 Hb 14.3

7/10 3 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 41.3 Hb 14

7/11, 2 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 40.7 Hb 13.7

7/14, the day after 1st rest day
Hct 43.1 Hb 14.4

7/20, the 2nd rest day
Hct 41.7 Hb 14

7/25, one day before the last day of the race
Hct 43 Hb 14.5

Giro 2009:

5/7, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 43.5 Hb 14.8

5/18
Hct 40 Hb 13.6

5/31, the last day of the race
Hct 38.2 Hb 13

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.com...0a264.Full.jpg

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/lan...ntmessage.html

Rasmus Damsgaard, who defended LA in the cyclingnews article linked above, was on Astana's payroll. Here's what he had to say when he wasn't being payed to lie.

Rasmussen did have a blood transfusion during the Tour or followed an EPO cure just before the Tour. Damsgaard says the increase of 3.6% in his hematocrit value and 1,1 gram per deciliter for his hemoglobin value is 'suspect', 'physiologically impossible' and scientifically impossible to explain in another way than that Rasmussen used doping.

When the [hemoglobin] number rises during a hard race like the Tour de France it indicates that one has received a blood transfusion,” Rasmus Damsgaard explains.

“We conclude that a rise in hemoglobin by itself ought to constitute the basis for the possibility of a penalty.”

Michael Ashenden agrees.

In a pre-Tour blood screen from June 29, two days before the 2006 race began, Landis had a hematocrit level of 44.8 percent and hemoglobin level of 15.5. On July 11, 10 stages into the Tour, his hematocrit had increased to 48.2 and his hemoglobin to 16.1.

This caught the attention of Michael Ashenden, project coordinator for an Australian research consortium called Science and Industry Against Blood Doping, because the body's concentration of red blood cells naturally decreases during an exhausting competition such as the Tour de France.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.

USADA: "Lance Armstrongs's doping is further evidenced by the data from blood collections obtained by the UCI from Lance Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This data is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

[Snowwy]

Originally Posted by Mjau!

You are such an ignorant tool. What you dismiss as "a report in L'Equipe" constitutes hard scientific evidence of doping.

Believing anything L'Equipe says about the USA is pretty much the silliest thing you can do.

[2003]

Originally Posted by IOFH

Armstrong was destroying proven dopers in his time so that also makes people question.

So is Bolt, and bolt is destroying olympic medalists and former WR holders, not just mid eventers. Ahem Justin Gatlin Ahem.

[Action Jackson]

http://www.bigpondsport.com/runner-b...7/default.aspx

Runner blames rain for drugs positive

A French runner has blamed contaminated rain water after she tested positive for EPO following a half-marathon.

Distance runner Fatima Yvelain, a four-time national champion in the 5000m, claimed heavy rainfall on the day of the race had caused water streaming over the course to become contaminated with unidentified medical waste, at an unspecified location on the course.

Yvelain claimed that the rain water - coincidentally now laced with a prohibited substance that is particularly beneficial to distance athletes - splashed on to her shorts. Her urine then became contaminated when she provided a sample at a doping test after the race.

The French Athletics Federation listened to Yvelain's explanation and promptly rejected it, banning her from the sport for two years.

[Purple Rainbow]

Originally Posted by Action Jackson

http://www.bigpondsport.com/runner-b...7/default.aspx

Runner blames rain for drugs positive

A French runner has blamed contaminated rain water after she tested positive for EPO following a half-marathon.

Distance runner Fatima Yvelain, a four-time national champion in the 5000m, claimed heavy rainfall on the day of the race had caused water streaming over the course to become contaminated with unidentified medical waste, at an unspecified location on the course.

Yvelain claimed that the rain water - coincidentally now laced with a prohibited substance that is particularly beneficial to distance athletes - splashed on to her shorts. Her urine then became contaminated when she provided a sample at a doping test after the race.

The French Athletics Federation listened to Yvelain's explanation and promptly rejected it, banning her from the sport for two years.

I wonder if there is an unwritten rule amongst athletes that you have to come up with the most ludicrous reason for the positive. There might even be an award for the most brilliant excuse.

[Tommy_Vercetti]

I don't understand what the point in all of this is, other than those seeking the press. So many cyclists have been accused of being dopers, including ALL of Armstrong's rivals, both historically and during his own reign. If the French and Spanish think that doing everything possible to hurt his reputation is going to give more glory to their own more documented dopers, then they are kidding themselves.

It's been so many years, unless he actually says that he was doping (and it's clear by now that IF he was illegally doping, then he's not going to admit it) they are not going to be able to sanction him or strip him of anything. And if they did, which suspected doper would they give credit to? Another Óscar Pereiro situation where another almost certain doper (but non-American) was considered the winner? It's not like Armstrong took different tests. If he passed and is still said to be a doper, then so is everyone else by the same criteria.

So I fully buy that much of this has to do with getting press and staying relevant for the agencies and nothing but pettiness from European "fans" and his team members who got caught doping.

[Purple Rainbow]

Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti

I don't understand what the point in all of this is, other than those seeking the press. So many cyclists have been accused of being dopers, including ALL of Armstrong's rivals, both historically and during his own reign. If the French and Spanish think that doing everything possible to hurt his reputation is going to give more glory to their own more documented dopers, then they are kidding themselves.

It's been so many years, unless he actually says that he was doping (and it's clear by now that IF he was illegally doping, then he's not going to admit it) they are not going to be able to sanction him or strip him of anything. And if they did, which suspected doper would they give credit to? Another Óscar Pereiro situation where another almost certain doper (but non-American) was considered the winner? It's not like Armstrong took different tests. If he passed and is still said to be a doper, then so is everyone else by the same criteria.

So I fully buy that much of this has to do with getting press and staying relevant for the agencies and nothing but pettiness from European "fans" and his team members who got caught doping.

Frankie Andreu never got caught doping, neither did Jonathan Vaughters. Hell, even Motorola teammate Stephen Swart admitted, but he never tested positive either.
Also, according to USADA, they have numerous witnesses, whose names are easy to guess. Danielson, Vandevelde, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Hincapie, I'm cerianly missing a few. All never tested positive.

I think it is safe to say that UCI's track record of catching dopers is very poor. Mostly, riders get suspended after a police operation linked them to a doping ring.

Finally, does it matter who gets the titles? Armstrong can keep them (with a big *), they can be made vacant or, my favourite, they can be awarded to doctor Ferrari.

[Dmitry Verdasco]

People are trippin' if they think Armstrong - a cancer survivor - could realistically dominate a sport where most competitors are doping. Clean people don't beat dopers - they take their titles a decade later when the truth comes out

Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti

He's not American.

Why are Chinese swimmers accused of doping, and Michael Phelps isn't?

[Dmitry Verdasco]

Originally Posted by Mjau!

You are such an ignorant tool. What you dismiss as "a report in L'Equipe" constitutes hard scientific evidence of doping.



http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...chael-ashenden

More:

USADA letter to Armstrong
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...arging0613.pdf

An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/lan...ntmessage.html

SI reports new information in the case against Lance Armstrong
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ong/index.html

Excerpt from LA CONFIDENTIAL - The Secrets of Lance Armstrong
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/35231...k#post_2884700

Ferrari, Del Moral and Marti banned for life in US Postal case
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferr...us-postal-case

Originally Posted by Mjau!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...levels-debated

Armstrong's Bio Passport Critic Speaks


http://velocitynation.com/content/in...-critic-speaks

Armstrong's values at the 2009 Tour de France:

7/2, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 42.8 Hb 14.3

7/10 3 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 41.3 Hb 14

7/11, 2 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 40.7 Hb 13.7

7/14, the day after 1st rest day
Hct 43.1 Hb 14.4

7/20, the 2nd rest day
Hct 41.7 Hb 14

7/25, one day before the last day of the race
Hct 43 Hb 14.5

Giro 2009:

5/7, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 43.5 Hb 14.8

5/18
Hct 40 Hb 13.6

5/31, the last day of the race
Hct 38.2 Hb 13

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.com...0a264.Full.jpg



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/lan...ntmessage.html

Rasmus Damsgaard, who defended LA in the cyclingnews article linked above, was on Astana's payroll. Here's what he had to say when he wasn't being payed to lie.





Michael Ashenden agrees.



USADA: "Lance Armstrongs's doping is further evidenced by the data from blood collections obtained by the UCI from Lance Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This data is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

GET IT GURL! U WENT RIGHT IN THURR!!11111111