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Old 08-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #31
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by mer View Post
You don't really understand it. Here is what Putin's trustee and representative during elections twitted few days ago - "The only ones who support them (Pussy Riot)are immigrants, fags and yids"
....god. its staggering that considering men and women to be equal is cited as a criminal view...and I fail to see, little masha, how the persecution of these women, regardless of whether you agree with their view or their means of expressing it, is sending any kind of message to the neo-nazis ...other than to encourage them further.....as much as I completely and profoundly disagree with your view on this, I do not suggest for a moment you have no right, or are silly, attention seeking or any of other derogatory terms you have used to refer to this political action - to express your view - just surprised you seem to be so keen to deny these three courageous women the same right.....
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:53 AM   #32
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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I fail to see, little masha, how the persecution of these women, regardless of whether you agree with their view or their means of expressing it, is sending any kind of message to the neo-nazis ...other than to encourage them further.....
exacly. It's Russian neo-nazis and homophobs who are among those ready to burn "Pussy Riot" for offending russian traditional values.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

Look, Mer, I don t want to offend anyone. It s obvious that we see things differently.

This is simply an exchange of ideas, I hope we all get this right, ok?

The above is strictly my opinion.

I never said they should go to jail for feminism (although I would not give those girls as an example of feminism because I see feminism as a serious and responsible thing, not quite like their little act, which to me actually seemed a bit cartoonly ridiculous), but for something that I see as an overexposed case of hooliganism which, do to said overexposure is dangerously electrifying for Russian society, especially since so backed-up by the Westerns press. And Madonna.

And although I don t live in Russia day to day and I m not Russian myself (yet very connected through family and business and frequently travelling there) I do believe that an autocratic regime is the only way to rule such a colossal affair as Russia.

Good or bad, to me it seems like the only way. At least for now.

As I said above, I have seen terrible things in Russia. I have even exemplified with something that I found outrageous, i.e. the way Russian society (ok, the majority of it) treats people from those Eurasian small countries.

That is scandalous to me (although I see that on that topic I didn t get an answer) and that is an example of something that I believe should galvanize the progressist part of Russian society, Madonna and the whole world much more that the Pussy Riot case.

But it doesn t and this I find particularly disturbing. What did Madonna & Red Hot Chilli Peppers have to say about the Georgian war, after all?

I don t know what Putin s trustee said. I live connected with a prety big group of Russian expats running business in Romania. Two of them are, as a background, lawyers like me. None of them saw in this Pussy Riot thing such a terrible case of violation of human rights or anything else than hooliganism, severly punished yes, but still, within the limits of the Russian law.

As regards the juridical qualification and penalty applicable, its not correct to say that the penalty they should have received under Russian law was just a fine.

I see that pursuant to art. 213 (*) of the Russian Criminal Code, the maximum penalty is 2 years. Although I didn t see the judgement, I presume that having been committed in public, by an organised group of people and, of course, premeditatedly, the judge went for the maximum available. So it s not actually like they invented come coercition just for them.

I did t intend to sound cruel when I said that the blond seemed a bit satisfied with the publicity their act got (actually, all three of them).

That is strictly my opinion, although, of course, due to my job maybe I tend to see the worst in people. If she has a kid who is now in some difficult situation, its of course regretable, but she should have got this covered when she embarked on a protestatary career. If she didn t, I still don t think we should blame Putin for it.

As for the blond being a religious person, who volunteered for several causes under the patronage of the Church...look, I m Christian Orthodox, and although not necessary practicing, I still find that kind of circus in a church insulting.

You got to say something about the Church getting involved with the State, do it decently.

And if you are a real protester at least SHOW YOUR FACE when you protest!

This is already a very long discussion, so let s not quarell over different opinions. I respect yours, please respect mine.

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(*) Article 213. Hooliganism

1. Hooliganism, that is, a gross violation of the public order which expresses patent contempt for society, attended by violence against private persons or by the threat of its use, and likewise by the destruction or damage of other people's property,
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 120 to 180 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of six to twelve months, or by arrest for a term of four to six months, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to two years.
2. The same act, if it is:
a) committed by a group of persons, a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or an organized group;
b) connected with resistance to a representative of authority or to any other person who fulfills the duty of protecting the public order or who prevents violation of the public order;
c) committed by a person who was earlier convicted of hooliganism-
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.
3. Hooliganism committed with the use of arms or objects used as arms
shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of four to eight years.

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Old 08-19-2012, 10:58 AM   #34
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

Inez,

I m sorry but I feel the need to use derogatory terms for the girls in question because, to me, the way they acted does not serve feminism, but actually makes women seem ridiculous.

What sort of a feminist denomination is PUSSY Riot?!

And feminists don t understand why they are mocked by (machist) men!

I do strongly feel for feminist causes (were there no feminist 3 generations before me, I would deffinitely not be a lawyer today, so...), but I do think that a poignant message is a seriously sent message.

To me, what they did was plain circus and even worse if they are actually educated women.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:14 AM   #35
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

little masha - I'm finding it hard to see your re-statement of your opinion, while ignoring the issues and information provided by Mer - as an "exchange' of views - please clarify for me the following:
"I have seen terrible things in Russia. I have even exemplified with something that I found outrageous, i.e. the way Russian society (ok, the majority of it) treats people from those Eurasian small countries."
How does the persecution of these women for stating their views differ from the racism (not to mention sexism and homophobia) that you claim to abhor?
"I don t know what Putin s trustee said." Mer just quoted what he said = any comment on that?
" Although I didn t see the judgement, I presume that having been committed in public, by an organised group of people and, of course, premeditatedly, the judge went for the maximum available. So it s not actually like they invented come coercition just for them."
I would have though as a Lawyer, the LAST thing you would do is "Presume" ANYTHING - and the LAw as quoted form your source, does not appear to justify the sentence - which, as Mer pointed out, was based NOT on the charge of "hooliganism" - but on the clearly trumped up charge of "Religious hatred"....

"This is already a very long discussion, so let s not quarell over different opinions. I respect yours, please respect mine."
I agree - however, disagreeing with you, or challenging your precepts, is NOT the same as not "respecting your opinion"
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
I never said they should go to jail for feminism (although I would not give those girls as an example of feminism because I see feminism as a serious and responsible thing, not quite like their little act, which to me actually seemed a bit cartoonly ridiculous), but for something that I see as an overexposed case of hooliganism which, do to said overexposure is dangerously electrifying for Russian society, especially since so backed-up by the Westerns press. And Madonna.
I do agree that the act itself was ridiculous. Actually majority of those who support them in russia agree on that. The girls themselves has said that it was an ethical mistake to protest inside the Church and they said sorry to all those who were offended.
As for feminism issue that's what the injured party lawer and the judge mentioned as a their motivation of the act which made it serious offence. The line "Mother of God become a feminist" was considered as deeply offensive and a prove that the girls were motivated by religious hatred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
(*) [i]Article 213. Hooliganism

1. Hooliganism, that is, a gross violation of the public order which expresses patent contempt for society, attended by violence against private persons or by the threat of its use, and likewise by the destruction or damage of other people's property,
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 120 to 180 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of six to twelve months, or by arrest for a term of four to six months, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to two years.
2. The same act, if it is:
a) committed by a group of persons, a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or an organized group;
b) connected with resistance to a representative of authority or to any other person who fulfills the duty of protecting the public order or who prevents violation of the public order;
c) committed by a person who was earlier convicted of hooliganism-
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.
3. Hooliganism committed with the use of arms or objects used as arms
shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of four to eight years.
The point is there was no violence, no threat of its use, and no destruction or damage of other people's property.

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
As I said above, I have seen terrible things in Russia.
That's right. And the "Pussy Riot" group and their supporters are protesting even though sometimes in a silly way against all these terrible things. The target is the current corrupted to core system of power in Russia which causes many of those terrible things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
If she has a kid who is now in some difficult situation, its of course regretable, but she should have got this covered when she embarked on a protestatary career. If she didn t, I still don t think we should blame Putin for it.
If you think that Putin and the Church has nothing to do with the verdict, well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
As for the blond being a religious person, who volunteered for several causes under the patronage of the Church...look, I m Christian Orthodox, and although not necessary practicing, I still find that kind of circus in a church insulting.
Insult itself is punished by fine according to the russian law and frankly, no offence, but those offended could shove it. I'd like them to spend 5 months in prison and then say how much their moral suffering caused by a silly act correspond with moral suffering of being held in prison and not being able to see your small children.


Quote:
Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
And if you are a real protester at least SHOW YOUR FACE when you protest!
First you say they are just seeking attention, then you say they should show their faces.
Masks are the part of their ideology - they want to stress that their personalities doesn't matter, their faces pretty or not doesn't matter, what matters is the idea and anyone can be the part of "pussy riot"


I respect your opinion. I just wished you understand that it's not about these 3 girls and what they did. It's about the starting of civil cold war between two Russia's and it's about possible future Russia will take. One is authoritarian, traditional based on uneducated masses, another is modern Russia who wants to have simple european values, who want the State to respect an individual etc. This is a critical moment in Russia, that's why the girls' stunt and the trial caused such a storm. It's not only West who protest. Inside Russia lot's of so called intelligensia are shocked with the trial and are seriously worried that russia is going back history wise.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:24 AM   #37
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
Inez,

I m sorry but I feel the need to use derogatory terms for the girls in question because, to me, the way they acted does not serve feminism, but actually makes women seem ridiculous.

What sort of a feminist denomination is PUSSY Riot?!

And feminists don t understand why they are mocked by (machist) men!

I do strongly feel for feminist causes (were there no feminist 3 generations before me, I would deffinitely not be a lawyer today, so...), but I do think that a poignant message is a seriously sent message.

To me, what they did was plain circus and even worse if they are actually educated women.
Clearly, IRONY is a foreign concept - to some, it would seem...and as for feminists being "mocked' by men...what??!! - does that make the WOMEN wrong - or the men pathetic and gutless? I disagree - I think 'feminists' clearly see why men mock them - because they can't handle equality, and women who do not automatically see themselves as the servants of men = that's why! jesus!! I don't know what you consider to be "serving feminism" - but condemning women for taking a stand - even if you may find their methods insulting or confronting, is merely pandering to the status quo...you appear to be asserting that the fact that you can practice as a lawyer is related to generations of feminists before you - and I am sure you are right - but don't you think the women who paved the way for your career today were NOT DEMONISED by their male contemporary society? its just as well for you that the pussy rioters of the previous century didn't give up because it was all too hard...
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by inez View Post
"I don t know what Putin s trustee said." Mer just quoted what he said = any comment on that?
here is the link to this twit in case you don't believe me
https://twitter.com/eduardbagirov/st...48105631993856
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:43 AM   #39
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They were charged for hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, but hooliganism is the felony, ok?

I exemplified with terrible things happening in Russian in oder to point out that there are other, more serious and frequent matters, that deserve much more attention, yet don t get it.

I don t know what Putin s trustee said is a way of saying I don t care what he said, but I still believe that the deciosn was correct. English is not my mother tongue.

Lawyers always asume things, we don t build bridges, we asume things and try to make people adopt our vision of a matter, correct or wrong, fair or unfair, if required by our client interest (you obviously didn t have issues with the law or any other contact with lawyers and that is actually a great thing. I honestly hope you never need the services of my peers).

And you obviously don t respect my opinion. If I reffer derogatively to the 3 women in question, I am free to do it, I don t adress to them directly. I talk to people in here and I do it politely. Dont point me out for doing it, were not in school. I can call Che Guevara an anarchist manwhore if I wish (of course I wouldnt) and yet you should not point me out.

Excuse me, I may be wrong, but from your replies to my posts, I somehow get the impression that you probably consider me some merciless dumb retrograd antifeminist who speaks for the sake of speaking, while definitely ignoring what fredom of speech and democracy mean.

All I can say is that you must accept, for the sake of the same freedom of speech claimed in regards to those women, that people may have different opinions even in regards to a case presented as violation of human rights.

To me, the case in question is no such thing. I am bothered by the fact that, in my opinion, it somehow steals the attention that other issues deserve.

The reason why I see things the way I do is (obviously) my living in Romania. This is a contry of a new and debatable democracy, currently undergoing a coup d etat (probably backed up by the Russians).

So democracy may be a great thing, but its a luxury applicable to developed societies. To an underdeveloped society, it may be a plain calamity.

This is why I m saing that an underdeveloped society requires an autocratic (not dictatorship, I never said that) rule.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:52 AM   #40
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

little masha, clearly we have opposing views on the issues raised by the pussy riot trial - I can't see that we are going to agree about the significance of the trial and the verdict = and I certainly do not see how my challenging your opinion suggests that I in ANY way "consider me (you) some merciless dumb retrograd antifeminist who speaks for the sake of speaking, while definitely ignoring what fredom of speech and democracy mean." - I DO, however, disagree with your view = on many different levels - but I defend your right to express those views as passionately as I defend the right of pussy riot to state their views without being put in JAIL - ridiculous or misguided as they may be considered to have been...perhaps we really ought to leave it there.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #41
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Clearly, IRONY is a foreign concept - to some, it would seem...
A lawyer with a sense of humour is called a sarcastic, so... maybe I dont get irony, what can I say...
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:57 AM   #42
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They were charged for hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, but hooliganism is the felony, ok?
They didn't commit hooliganism as there was no violence, threat of violence or any destruction of property. And even if we consider it's hooliganism they wouldn't be sent to jail considering no criminal record and kids. They would get suspended sentence or community work. The main point here is "religious hatred" - this is what gives the judge an excuse to send them to prison. How do you prove religious hatred motivation? Apparently for russian court their feminist views and LGBT support is a prove that they were motivated by hatred. If you don't think this is a terrible thing for human rights cause...Seriously, I feel ridiculous explaining all this.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:11 PM   #43
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They didn't commit hooliganism as there was no violence, threat of violence or any destruction of property. And even if we consider it's hooliganism they wouldn't be sent to jail considering no criminal record and kids. They would get suspended sentence or community work. The main point here is "religious hatred" - this is what gives the judge an excuse to send them to prison. How do you prove religious hatred motivation? Apparently for russian court their feminist views and LGBT support is a prove that they were motivated by hatred. If you don't think this is a terrible thing for human rights cause...Seriously, I feel ridiculous explaining all this.
Mer,

You dont have to explain all this.

But almost any judge would condemn them to actual prison time because of the public impact the case got.

Classic criminal law doctrine (Romanian, but whatever) states for such cases that since the act gravely offended/divided public opinion, correct retribution implies a more severere punishment that maybe the act itself would require under other circumstances.

This is what I said allalong - the public storm generated by the case is what probably added at least a year to the sentence.

At least thats how I see it, most criminal law judges Ive seen would have reasond like this.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

little_masha why do think this case got such a public impact? Why public was gravely offended? In fact the public had no idea about this act or simply didn't care. Until the girls were arrested and state controlled tv channels started a massive smear campaign portraying these girls as witches and puppets of the evil West whose goal is to destroy the Russia etc.

So, basically, authorities purposefully ignited the hatred and then they made the polls and said, look, most of the public want the girls severely punished.

If the law had been followed and there was no unjust arrest and the girls were just fined within a week, the whole thing would have been forgotten immediately , no offended public, no outcry from the West about human rights. Nothing.

But the authorities decided to make a show trial which turned into a joke, with all this "feminism is a mortal sin" and "mixed personality disorder displayed by active position in life" and so called experts condemning the girls guilty based on X century Church laws, with not letting the defence to call their witness and experts, and the crazy dog in the courtroom barking and trying to attack the defendants.

So, Putin and the Church got what they deserved.

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Old 08-20-2012, 10:11 AM   #45
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So, Putin and the Church got what they deserved.
...yeah...just wondering if Putin bit off more than even HE can chew in the long-run with this one....guess time will tell - but at least they have galvanized the debate - up to a point
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