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Old 08-18-2012, 04:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

And hopefully, he never will (join, that is....)at least for the moment we can still cling to the belief that he can distance himself from the repression...although it is really impossible to imagine that he is unaware of the impact this latest debacle has on the reputation of Russia in the West (not that Putin particularly cares about THAT - disapproval merely adds fuel to his fire of "US against Them" after all) ...but Marat has always seemed to be patriotic in a rather ....emotional way - as opposed to a pragmatic "part of the agenda" way, I mean - characteristic of the ex-pat which, for the vast majority of his life, is after all, what he was) but clearly misguided..and sucked in to politics on a local level possibly without much real examination of the 'bigger' picture - representing NN in the Duma probably sounded like a good idea when it was pitched to him....but now he is tarred with the same brush as the rest of ER, member or not .....interestingly, the BBC World Service made mention, towards the end of their broadcast of the verdict - that the Orthodox Church (rather late , as the reporter noted) has issued a statement asking for "mercy".....which makes you wonder, surely the women will pose a greater threat to Putin, even locked away in a siberian labor camp, as a focus for the disparate opposition - so is that the fist stage in a process which may see Putin playing the benevolent "father of the nation" to release them 6 months down the track......or has the damage already been done??
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Old 08-18-2012, 07:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by inez View Post
And hopefully, he never will (join, that is....)at least for the moment we can still cling to the belief that he can distance himself from the repression...
it's too late
Quote:
Originally Posted by inez View Post
Orthodox Church (rather late , as the reporter noted) has issued a statement asking for "mercy".....which makes you wonder, surely the women will pose a greater threat to Putin, even locked away in a siberian labor camp, as a focus for the disparate opposition - so is that the fist stage in a process which may see Putin playing the benevolent "father of the nation" to release them 6 months down the track......or has the damage already been done??
pretty cynical to ask for mercy after the verdict. Church did it to safe the face.
Best case scenario I guess is the girls released in spring on probation. One thing for sure- they will be released before winter Olympics 2014.
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Old 08-18-2012, 09:46 AM   #18
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I know....I agree...the "church' has it's own agenda in this....as much as Putin...the reportage we have had in the media in Australia (the 'intelligent media' - if there IS such a thing...) has not failed to note how this whole issue has illustrated the divides in secular Russian society - between the 'devout' outraged for religious reasons - and the politically aware intelligentsia - who don't seem to exist outside the centres of Moscow and Saint Petersburg...so the whole thing plays to Putin's power base - the uneducated masses...the whole THING is ironic!
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:33 AM   #19
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

On a lighter note, this trial ended as absurd as it was absurd itself. You might want to read about this little "interational conflict" which happened near the court after the verdict was read. The story about how Russia "invaded" Turkey )))
http://translate.google.com/translat...%2F440868.html

http://youtu.be/y7r9TZhUg3I

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Old 08-18-2012, 09:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

I'm astonished to see just how easily people will start screaming crime against democracy/supression of the freedom of speach, etc. at just about anything happening in Russia!

And, no offense, it's most frequenly not even the people who are supposed to know about it better, i.e.the Russians, but all sort of far-away countries clearly politically antagonical to Russia.

I'm not necessarly a huge fan of Mr. Putin and I don't live in Russia (I live in Romania and trust me, the last thing we love these days in Romania is the mere thought of our "friendly neighbour from the East").

But I firmly belive that much of the non-sense that is pourred in the Western press, all this negative opinions to which (no offense, plese) people leaving far, far away from Russia seem o belive they are entitled to, is the result of nohing else but of a tenacious campaign targeted againts a political competitor.

I'm really curious how would you people govern a country as big as Russia, given all the problems within (economical, ethnical, etc.) other than with an iron fist?!

And let me tell you, as a practician of law, that [/b]what [/b]those silly chicks did WAS hoolliganismaccording to any common sense criminal law textbook.

Of course everybody now screams dictatorship, but fact is: it was hoolliganism., get over it!

Much more dangerous as it comes from people with a certain public exposure. And in a country with such big extremist issues!

So let them go to jail (the penalty seemed fairly balanced to me), that's what an ordinary Russian ciizen would do for a similar crime (again, it's a crime, regulated by a criminal law, no something invented to crush young revolutionary spirit), that's what they should do!

After all if all you are capable to imagine as a political protest is the ridiculosness they came up with, the rest of the world should probably pity other stuff then their young, silly, attention seeking asses.

As for Marat, why do people constantly take him for a naive who got cought in the spider web of a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?!

Would it be all that impossible to accept that maybe not only is he fully aware of what politics is about, but also that he agrees with his party's actions?!

That maybe he sees said actions as correct?!

Does that make him stupid? Or evil?

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Old 08-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

Great analysis Little Masha. We all have these problems and in the US most of the perpetrators of such things are ignored when in fact they should have to pay for their "hooliganism." I think anyone who goes into politics in any country is in for a lot of disappointment and unfair criticism. It's a hard job. We should support Marat in his efforts to make his country better, whatever view he takes of this.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
I'm astonished to see just how easily people will start screaming crime against democracy/supression of the freedom of speach, etc. at just about anything happening in Russia!

And, no offense, it's most frequenly not even the people who are supposed to know about it better, i.e.the Russians, but all sort of far-away countries clearly politically antagonical to Russia.

I'm not necessarly a huge fan of Mr. Putin and I don't live in Russia (I live in Romania and trust me, the last thing we love these days in Romania is the mere thought of our "friendly neighbour from the East").

But I firmly belive that much of the non-sense that is pourred in the Western press, all this negative opinions to which (no offense, plese) people leaving far, far away from Russia seem o belive they are entitled to, is the result of nohing else but of a tenacious campaign targeted againts a political competitor.

I'm really curious how would you people govern a country as big as Russia, given all the problems within (economical, ethnical, etc.) other than with an iron fist?!

And let me tell you, as a practician of law, that [/b]what [/b]those silly chicks did WAS hoolliganismaccording to any common sense criminal law textbook.

Of course everybody now screams dictatorship, but fact is: it was hoolliganism., get over it!

Much more dangerous as it comes from people with a certain public exposure. And in a country with such big extremist issues!

So let them go to jail (the penalty seemed fairly balanced to me), that's what an ordinary Russian ciizen would do for a similar crime (again, it's a crime, regulated by a criminal law, no something invented to crush young revolutionary spirit), that's what they should do!

After all if all you are capable to imagine as a political protest is the ridiculosness they came up with, the rest of the world should probably pity other stuff then their young, silly, attention seeking asses.

As for Marat, why do people constantly take him for a naive who got cought in the spider web of a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?!

Would it be all that impossible to accept that maybe not only is he fully aware of what politics is about, but also that he agrees with his party's actions?!

That maybe he sees said actions as correct?!

Does that make him stupid? Or evil?
Apologies for the posting of the entire quote, Monkey, but I would like to address each of these accusatory charges individually.
Firstly, of course you are entitled to your opinion, little masha, and clearly you are applying a very different perspective to this, given the country you live in and it's recent history, to myself, having lived all my life in western democratic countries. I will qualify straight away - "democracy" is by no means a "perfect" political system, and neither is western law unimpeachable in some instances - but I think there are several major issues at stake here which speak precisely to the separation between the STATE, the CHURCH and the LAW - all of which should operate entirely independently and should, it seems to me, act as moderating forces upon each other - and THAT is the crux of the matter to my mind.

IN this case, religious outrage has walked hand in hand with political repression - 'hooliganism'on one side is legitimate political protest about a specific issue of the Patriarch as a representative of the CHURCH publicly supporting Putin's re-election and therefore clearly NOT beingindependent - on the other - all rather ironic,I would say, given the soviet repression of the Church wouldn't you think, and Putin's previous career in the KGB.... as for your supposition that it's only ignorant foreigners who are
"screaming crime against democracy/supression of the freedom of speach, etc. at just about anything happening in Russia!"
Tell that to the Russians arrested outside the court, and the thousands of opposition protesters who risk arrest and fines, as the Duma just passed the laws relating to 'unauthorised' protests - which can amount to many more times the average wage...or are THEY just imagining it all?

...oh no, wait - they are ALL AGENTS OF THE WEST, right - paid off by the americans to go to jail for making a political protest - whether or not you agree with their particular choice of action, THAT is not the argument here, is it? and frankly, to claim that it's all anti-Russian rhetoric created by the western press as an attack against Russia is both spurious and ridiculous - and THAT is precisely what I mean by "Us against THEM" - Putin has ALWAYS played that card - Russia is "different" and the west just don't "understand" - well, sorry, but THAT is bullshit - people are MUCH more connected these days, and rather than retreating back into your cold war cave, you would be better advised to wake up and smell the coffee - look at what has happened across the world's repressive regimes in the last two years....Putin,the church and a corrupt judiciary may send these three women to a labor camp in Siberia for two years (if they end up locking them away for that long)but the argument is FAR from over...they won't just 'disappear'...and it may be that Putin has misjudged the benefit of making an "example" out of them...lets see what happens when they get the case to the European Court of Human Rights - or is that just a load of western nonsense we should just "get over" ???

As for Marat's position on this - we don't KNOW whether he agrees or disagrees do we, because he has never commented on ANYTHING significant related to an issue of public concern such as this - you overstate your case by resorting to this kind of meaningless rhetoric - "a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?!" really???
It would not be "impossible" to "accept" that he agrees with what is being perpetrated by the power-brokers in the Kremlin - and I don't recall suggesting that that if he DID, that would make him either "stupid' or "evil" - just - in my opinion - "wrong".
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post

And, no offense, it's most frequenly not even the people who are supposed to know about it better, i.e.the Russians, but all sort of far-away countries clearly politically antagonical to Russia. ... I firmly belive that much of the non-sense that is pourred in the Western press, all this negative opinions to which (no offense, plese) people leaving far, far away from Russia seem o belive they are entitled to, is the result of nohing else but of a tenacious campaign targeted againts a political competitor.
Assuming they're in possession of all the key facts, the Western media aren't automatically compromised by physical distance from Russia in their ability to think objectively about the events taking place there. And they're not saying anything about this verdict (or about Putin) that some Russians wouldn't say (or haven't already said) themselves in the Russian media.


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And let me tell you, as a practician of law, that [/b]what [/b]those silly chicks did WAS hoolliganismaccording to any common sense criminal law textbook. Of course everybody now screams dictatorship, but fact is: it was hoolliganism., get over it!
My guess is you don't practise criminal law.


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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post

After all if all you are capable to imagine as a political protest is the ridiculosness they came up with, the rest of the world should probably pity other stuff then their young, silly, attention seeking asses. Much more dangerous as it comes from people with a certain public exposure. And in a country with such big extremist issues!
Read the closing statements of these "young, silly, attention seeking asses" before condemning them for "ridiculousness". They sound intelligent, articulate, passionate, humane, and just as committed as Safin to making Russia a better place to live, for everyone, not just for the privileged few.


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So let them go to jail (the penalty seemed fairly balanced to me), that's what an ordinary Russian ciizen would do for a similar crime (again, it's a crime, regulated by a criminal law, no something invented to crush young revolutionary spirit), that's what they should do!
Their so-called crime was to perform a song in a church as an act of protest against said Church getting into bed with the State. That's not hooliganism. They didn't destroy anything, they were not violent or intoxicated, they were not reckless to human life, and especially they were not motivated by "religious hatred".

They were detained in prison for 5 months before being brought before the court on trumped up charges (hooliganism being evidently a very elastic term in Russian law) and handed down sentences of alarmingly disproportionate length.


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I'm really curious how would you people govern a country as big as Russia, given all the problems within (economical, ethnical, etc.) other than with an iron fist?!
With true democracy, surely. Ruling a populace (however large or small) with an iron fist isn't government, but oppression and control, and it will never solve human problems or answer humanity's best interests. An authoritarian regime requires docile citizens who submit unquestioningly to its every demand or decision, however unsound. Anyone questioning the set-up ends up either dead or in prison/labour camp on a trumped-up charge (sound familiar?). The last thing the Iron Fist wants is a population comprised of intelligent, sensitive, self-aware, self-directing, compassionate and loving individuals going about their business in genuine cooperation with each other.


Quote:
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As for Marat, why do people constantly take him for a naive who got cought in the spider web of a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?! Would it be all that impossible to accept that maybe not only is he fully aware of what politics is about, but also that he agrees with his party's actions?! That maybe he sees said actions as correct?! Does that make him stupid? Or evil?
It's not about stupidity or evil. Safin was elected to the Duma as a non-partisan candidate via the Popular Front platform (created by Putin) which accounts for 25% of United Russia's seats. If he's still non-partisan, then United Russia is not "his" party per se, but he would still be expected to vote along party lines, whether he agreed with it or not. But his alignment with United Russia, however pragmatic it was at the time, may taint him by association in the eyes of the world, especially now. I personally tend to see Marat's presence in politics as a good thing. Whether I'm justified in thinking that, remains to be seen.


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Apologies for the posting of the entire quote, Monkey, but I would like to address each of these accusatory charges individually.
No worries, I did the same but broke it up a bit!

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Old 08-19-2012, 03:10 AM   #24
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On a lighter note, this trial ended as absurd as it was absurd itself. You might want to read about this little "interational conflict" which happened near the court after the verdict was read. The story about how Russia "invaded" Turkey )))
http://translate.google.com/translat...%2F440868.html

http://youtu.be/y7r9TZhUg3I
Hehehe...the crowd chanting "Facists' as they dragged her away reminded me of when the cops cleared out City Square of the "Occupy" protesters a couple of months ago - difference being, of course, our ferals were not going to be prosecuted and chucked in jail for expressing an opinion somewhat at odds with the mainstream - but that's silly old "democracy' for you - tolerates all kind of silly protests.....

we actually saw this on the news here - in fact, it may even have made it onto the NTV news programme broadcast by SBS - who IS that woman with the hair that looks like a bike helmet, by the way.... :-)
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Old 08-19-2012, 07:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
And let me tell you, as a practician of law, that [/b]what [/b]those silly chicks did WAS hoolliganismaccording to any common sense criminal law textbook.

Of course everybody now screams dictatorship, but fact is: it was hoolliganism., get over it!

Much more dangerous as it comes from people with a certain public exposure. And in a country with such big extremist issues!

So let them go to jail (the penalty seemed fairly balanced to me), that's what an ordinary Russian ciizen would do for a similar crime (again, it's a crime, regulated by a criminal law, no something invented to crush young revolutionary spirit), that's what they should do!

After all if all you are capable to imagine as a political protest is the ridiculosness they came up with, the rest of the world should probably pity other stuff then their young, silly, attention seeking asses.
All prominent Russian lawers don't agree with you. They insist they it was not a felony. The only thing the girls should have been charged with is insulting the believers. Under russian law this is punished by a fine.
Now let's check, the girls didn't touch anyone or anything in the church, there was no service when they came. All they did was dancing and chanting. No music was played. They didn't display aggressive behavior. Also, let's take into consideration that they no prior criminal record and two of them have small children. So, do you really think these women deserve to go to prison for 2 years for singing and dancing in a church? Do you believe that 5 month detention before trial for women who pose no threat is adequate?

Now, why not take a closer look at their "silly asses". We have one philosophy graduate, one green peace activist and charity worker, and the third one is computer programmer who was part of a group working on military submarine soft, and she also finished modern art institute. All three was them are feminist activists.

btw interesting fact, the "injured" party lawer said during the trial that feminism is a mortal sin. The judge when reading the verdict said that feminism though not a crime under russian law opposes fundamental values of the Church and hence the girls were motivated by religious hatred. Mind you it's "religious hatred" motivation that makes their charge so grave. Simple hooliganism would be much softer charge and only probation sentence.

P.S. and about attention seeking, that't really funny considering one of the group (about 20 girls) main ideas is being anonymous. They wear masks and even their parents and close friends have no idea about their activities. If those tree was not arrested public would not know their faces.

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Old 08-19-2012, 07:40 AM   #26
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Hehehe...the crowd chanting "Facists' as they dragged her away reminded me of when the cops cleared out City Square of the "Occupy" protesters a couple of months ago - difference being, of course, our ferals were not going to be prosecuted and chucked in jail for expressing an opinion somewhat at odds with the mainstream - but that's silly old "democracy' for you - tolerates all kind of silly protests.....

we actually saw this on the news here - in fact, it may even have made it onto the NTV news programme broadcast by SBS - who IS that woman with the hair that looks like a bike helmet, by the way.... :-)
it's not the girl they drag away on this video. It's a guy who also tried to go over the fence. They girl spent about an hour on the territory of the embassy. The embassy officials didn't let the police arrest her there. She was arrested only after she left through another exit.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:35 AM   #27
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Oh, dear!

Physical distance from Russia does not, by itself, alter the press capacity to correctly report on Russia.

However, the Western world, as a whole, does place itself on an antagonistical position with Russia and, to me, this is the work of politicians and press (mainly of the politicized press) because, really, the vast majority of the Western world anyway ignores Russian realities.

However, we still fear they may come for us!

And while that may be possible, I doubt it is reflected by this Pussy Riot affair - which is, honestly and with all my responsability as a bankruptcy and criminal law laywer, a case of overexposed hooliganism, which, due to the high exposure, has become too hot to be handled as a mere misdemeanour.

So, some chicks (I refuse to reffer politely, excuse me. What they did was plain silly, so I don t care about their background as rocket scientists and journalism students or being articulate. You wanna protest/send a message/whatever...make it seriously, not as an insulting circus. Because if I were a deeply religious person, I would definitely feel insulted by their act) stage a small hooliganic act in church, they become a media sensation, the opposition cries violation of human rights (of course they do), some street protests follow, the Western world if after your ass once again because as long as you are their main potential opponent, they will always be.

What would you do?

What do you do in a country too big and ethnically diverse to be governed liberally, which harbours half the neo-nazis of the world?

You set an example, once and for all, in order to avoid future attention seeking pseudo-artists to cause a media stirr that will offer the Westerners a great oportunity to paint you black.

As for ruling Russia democraticaly, are we even serious?

I don t thik that s possible.

Every time I go there I say to myself that well, democracy may sound great, but there are cases (Russian being one) when it is simply imposible.

I have once seen a scene on the street in Sankt Petersburg where some skinheads literally attacked 2 Asian looking fellows (I was later told that they must of been from the Eurasian part of Russia) and I was shocked to see that people didn t react. They looked away.

I started aggitating around until my friend got out of the building in front of which I was expecting him and said be quiet, we don t want to get involved in such thing.

This is the kind of thing that I reffer to when I say that we should all be concerned about other things, much more serious and frequent, happening in Russia.

You wanna cry violation of human rights, how about those people I ve seen chased on a street in Petersburg? How about a pletora of Russian lawyers juridically qualify that particular incident, how about Kasparov and the rest of the opposition hold their hands and try to put a stop to incidents like the one above?

Such incidents are not glamourous enough to be publicized and gather the attention of Western press and Madonna.

Those Eurasians don t put a mask o their face and make a fool of themselves in a Church. They simply come to the big cities, chased by a terrible poverty in their native lands, to be trated like inferior race, chased on the streets, hit, underpaid, etc.

So, in my opinion, we should all keep a sense of proportions. Maybe those chicks could have gotten away with a fine, but given the media and social storm it created, I would have put them to jail myself. I m sure there is a solution for their kids to be taken care of, thair mothers should have been more responsible.

These girls have become stars. They will come out of the prison pseudo-martyrs, just for having spent 1 year and a half in prison (the 5 month prior to the trial will be deduced). Maybe they will be released earlier for good behaviour.

I have seen most media coverage regarding this affair, their small interviews and I think they acually enjoy all this circus (specially the curly-haired blond one) because it made some empty-headed nobodies human rights martyrs.

They sure are no Solzhenitsyn. But they will be revered just as much.

And this is plain unfair.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:06 AM   #28
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So, in my opinion, we should all keep a sense of proportions. Maybe those chicks could have gotten away with a fine, but given the media and social storm it created, I would have put them to jail myself.
Those "chicks" should have been treated according to the law and not according to yours or anyone's idea of appropriety. According to the law they should have been fined. Even if charged with hooliganism they should have been released on bail till the trial as they don't pose a threat. Media and social storm was created by apparently unjust detention and trial , not by their act in Church.

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
I m sure there is a solution for their kids to be taken care of, thair mothers should have been more responsible.
Their mothers didn't commit a felony and didn't expect to be put in prison. Their mothers are expressing their feminist views by peacful protests acts.


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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
These girls have become stars. They will come out of the prison pseudo-martyrs, just for having spent 1 year and a half in prison (the 5 month prior to the trial will be deduced).
oh my, are you serious? Are you aware of what russian prison is like? 5 month in russian prison is more than enough punishment.

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
I have seen most media coverage regarding this affair, their small interviews and I think they acually enjoy all this circus (specially the curly-haired blond one) because it made some empty-headed nobodies human rights martyrs.
One thing is for sure, they are not empty headed. They have very strong ideas and they are ready to stand by them.
Curly-haired blond one has seen her 5 y/o son only once during 5 month, through a glass wall. This blond is a religious person herself who volunteered to work with sick children under Orthodox charity organisation. She's fighted the authorities destroying forests. She did all this before the stunt in Church. Calling her empty -headed and saying that she enjoys this is plain cruel.

This trial is an insult and a warning to all normal people.

"Judge Marina Syrova declared in monotone how Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Ekaterina Samutsevich and Maria Alyokhina, two of them mothers, conspired to wear clothing that was an offence against church rules, "colluded" to produce a guitar and amplifier and "demonstratively and cynically" defied "the Orthodox world… devaluing centuries of revered and protected dogmas". In all this, the world learned from the judge, the women's "religious hatred" was motivated "by way of them being feminists who consider men and women to be equal".

Perhaps most ridiculous of all was the cod psychology deployed to damn the women, asserting that the defendants "suffered from mixed personality disorder displayed by their active position in life".
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:29 AM   #29
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by little_masha View Post
What do you do in a country too big and ethnically diverse to be governed liberally, which harbours half the neo-nazis of the world?

This is the kind of thing that I reffer to when I say that we should all be concerned about other things, much more serious and frequent, happening in Russia.
You don't really understand it. Here is what Putin's trustee and representative during elections twitted few days ago - "The only ones who support them (Pussy Riot)are immigrants, fags and yids"
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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it's not the girl they drag away on this video. It's a guy who also tried to go over the fence. They girl spent about an hour on the territory of the embassy. The embassy officials didn't let the police arrest her there. She was arrested only after she left through another exit.
Thanks for the clarification - it wasn't clear from the vid that it was someone else....with all those phones and cameras out watching the police, guess it's harder for them to make people 'disappear"....
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