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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Pete?

No. I think Federer's decline is a fact and he's not winning any major in the future. 38 17.35%
I kinda agree... He's in a great moment, but the other 2 guys are too good. No more slams for Feddy 45 20.55%
I totally agree. Fed's still playing great tennis and he'll probably win another major 104 47.49%
Hello. I'm Rod Laver and my records are intact. Suck it losers. 32 14.61%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-17-2012, 06:30 PM   #1156
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Start da Greatness is doing what MIMIC used to do, arguing all he can that Federer has not actually declined, that he was just overtaken by better players - players that incidentally lose to mugs as often as olderer and MORE often than 04-07 Fed used to.

I don't even understand his argument to be honest. Nadal for example was very much active and winning slams even in Fed's prime but got taken out in countless non-clay events by the very players Greatness claims sucked. Baffling really.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:38 PM   #1157
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
Start da Greatness is doing what MIMIC used to do, arguing all he can that Federer has not actually declined, that he was just overtaken by better players - players that incidentally lose to mugs as often as olderer and MORE often than 04-07 Fed used to.

I don't even understand his argument to be honest. Nadal for example was very much active and winning slams even in Fed's prime but got taken out in countless non-clay events by the very players Greatness claims sucked. Baffling really.
Everyone sees right though Greatness motive. " to make Novak look good"
All this era talk is just a smoke screen. Feds Prime ran currently to 04-07.
However she pushed it further back to 03-06 why . He pushed it back because fed beat Novak in USO. He was " young" but a few months later he won AO. He suddenly got good.
I am surprise he/she didn't state 1999/ 2003.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:45 PM   #1158
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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Originally Posted by luie View Post
I am just stating facts . Nadull predominantly wins when conditions favor him . Clay and slow bouncing HC. Is that to say . He can't beat fed on a favorable surface NO of course not. He could beat fed anywhere any time but generally does it on conditions that aid his retrieving and top spin .
Yes fed has won 4 AO . But they changed the surface from rebound ace before 2009. When fed had won 3/4 at the AO. The current surface is slower and higher bouncing favoring nadull and grinders. There is a reason grinders do good at the AO as well it HOT. So something skill takes a back seat to raw physicality.
So teenage nadull beat Prime fed so what? Old fed beat Prime nadull at IW on Nadulls best HC masters. Fed also beat nadull on clay in BO3. Fed also had match points against nadull at Rome in a best of 5 on clay before he choked the match away.
All time greats can compete against the best and win and vice versa. Fed is still 2-1 against nadull on Grass.
My point still stand nadull is a No-show on Feds "tour" conditions favor him.
From 2005- till present post RG they is like 6/7 compulsory tourneys.
Nadull was a GS champion in 2005 there have been like 50 + tournies played from 2005-2012.
Of that nadull has made a finals appearance and waited on fed who didn't show like 6/7 in like 8 years.
Notable Wimby 10/11 USO 10/11.
Madrid 05. Paris 07. Rogers cup 08. OG 08.
However while fed didn't play all these finals to wait for nadull he was at the business end of most with nadull not showing.
Of the 16 slams in that Period nadull was at 4 without fed.
It's a few give and take get the picture.
Now compare that to the first 2 slams of the year fed only missed RG 10 n 12. U see the disparity.
So even when fed is not at 100% he competes the same cant be said about nadull. When not at 100% he withdraws or loses early.
Nadull still is in decline whatever u say with 2 years with no title off clay u can dodge facts all you want, it remains the same.
There is nothing factual about making excuses for every instance of Federer losing to opponents who have outplayed him several times even when they were young.
And now you're saying Fed competes the same way even when he's not 100%, which is a convenient way of saying he's so much better than everyone else he barely has to try.
You can say Nadal is in decline, but I don't see how that's relevant if he can still beat Federer in slams and win Roland Garros, both of which he did this year.

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
You're missing the point. Lets agree with you that they were mugs. What does that prove about Federer's level? Nothing.

To repeat again:

If no one could challenge Federer, then we can't determine what his limits actually were.
To repeat again, he was getting owned by a teenage clay courter on hardcourts. What does that say about all the hardcourt players of the time? Mugs. His limits were being unable to solve the challenges in playing Nadal even when he was at his best. Safin showed a level of play that was just as good as Federer back then but didn't seem to care much about tennis.

Weak,weak,weak field of one slam wonders, 35 year old Agassi, mugs showing up in slam finals to be destroyed, teenage Rafa still learning the game etc...

It's easier to look good against a weaker opponent yet prime Federer still got owned in the 2nd round at the 2004 Olympics by teenage Berdych. Olderer still chasing that elusive singles gold medal. lol

Get over yourselves, greatness is not just number of slams, it's how you won & against who. The merit of success isn't equal for everyone especially those dominating mugs during their best years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by luie View Post
Everyone sees right though Greatness motive. " to make Novak look good"
All this era talk is just a smoke screen. Feds Prime ran currently to 04-07.
However she pushed it further back to 03-06 why . He pushed it back because fed beat Novak in USO. He was " young" but a few months later he won AO. He suddenly got good.
I am surprise he/she didn't state 1999/ 2003.
Yes, Novak was young, and the fact that he could beat Federer at the AO 2008 in straights is an indication of his strong desire to succeed leading to improvement. There is nothing shameful about making a slam final at the USO and giving a good match to in form Federer.

Novak doesn't need me to look good, he's doing great fine winning 5 slams and 12 masters.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:06 PM   #1159
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

From the Connors era on (i.e. ignoring Laver, Rosewall and the greats who came before them when eras were so different making things difficult to compare) the most amount of slams that anyone won between the age of 0-25 is 11 (Federer tied with Borg), the most amount of Slams that anyone won between the age of 26-30 is 6 (Federer tied with Lendl) and the most amount of Slams won from age 31 onwards is 2 (Connors). The arc of tennis careers do not all peak at the same time but I think from 0-25 most tennis players are at their physical peak, from 26-30 is the post-peak period, while anything from 31 on is considered a bonus since many tennis players have already retired by that age or are lucky to win slams at that age. It's specious to criticize Federer for not winning as much from 2008 on as proof that he was "overrated" and benefited from weak competition, when Federer not only is tied with Borg for most dominant peak but also tied with Lendl for most dominant post-peak of any tennis player. The simple fact is that tennis players do not win as often as they get older. It is unreasonable to say that because Federer did not win as often from 2008 on that should be regarded as proof that he wasn't really that good from 2003-2007. On the contrary, the fact that Federer has won 6 Slams during his post-peak (and is ranked #1 at 31 years of age) in what many consider one of the toughest eras ever should be considered as supporting evidence of how good he was during his peak. If Nadal, Djokovic and Murray are so great, why has the old man won the most slams between age 26-30 (tied with Lendl) than anyone else from the Connors era onwards? If Federer really was not that good why has he won so much at such an advanced age while clearly playing inferior to his level between 2003-2007? It is interesting to note that since Nadal won his first Slam in 2005 at Roland Garros, Federer has won 13 Slams while Nadal has won only 11. Since Aussie 2008, Nole has won 5 Slams while Federer has won 5. Even as he ages, Federer has been able to keep up with the young guys in their prime.

People like to belittle Federer's competition but it is interesting that past his prime Roddick has been able to beat Djokovic and Murray at Grand Slams during this "glory era" between 2008-2012; past his prime Safin beat Nole at Wimbledon during this era; Gonzalez beat Murray at the French; Tommy Haas beat Djokovic at Wimbledon. Guys who were years removed from their best tennis were still good enough to beat this era's greats while Djokovic and Murray were in their prime. Let us remember that it was 29 year old Federer that beat supreme Djokovic at Roland Garros ending his 43 match winning streak after Djokovic had been thrashing Nadal during the clay season. Furthermore, Federer at 30 years of age just beat #1 seed Djokovic and #4 seed Murray at Wimbledon. Let us also keep in mind that conditions (court surfaces, tennis balls) have slowed the game considerably and that post-peak Federer has been able to have this remarkable success in conditions that favour defensive-minded players more than at any time in tennis history. If anything, Federer's accomplishments from 2008 on are evidence of his greatness not the opposite.

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Old 08-17-2012, 07:08 PM   #1160
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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Originally Posted by Greatness View Post
There is nothing factual about making excuses for every instance of Federer losing to opponents who have outplayed him several times even when they were young.
And now you're saying Fed competes the same way even when he's not 100%, which is a convenient way of saying he's so much better than everyone else he barely has to try.
You can say Nadal is in decline, but I don't see how that's relevant if he can still beat Federer in slams and win Roland Garros, both of which he did this year.



To repeat again, he was getting owned by a teenage clay courter on hardcourts. What does that say about all the hardcourt players of the time? Mugs. His limits were being unable to solve the challenges in playing Nadal even when he was at his best. Safin showed a level of play that was just as good as Federer back then but didn't seem to care much about tennis.

Weak,weak,weak field of one slam wonders, 35 year old Agassi, mugs showing up in slam finals to be destroyed, teenage Rafa still learning the game etc...

It's easier to look good against a weaker opponent yet prime Federer still got owned in the 2nd round at the 2004 Olympics by teenage Berdych. Olderer still chasing that elusive singles gold medal. lol

Get over yourselves, greatness is not just number of slams, it's how you won & against who. The merit of success isn't equal for everyone especially those dominating mugs during their best years.




Yes, Novak was young, and the fact that he could beat Federer at the AO 2008 in straights is an indication of his strong desire to succeed leading to improvement. There is nothing shameful about making a slam final at the USO and giving a good match to in form Federer.

Novak doesn't need me to look good, he's doing great fine winning 5 slams and 12 masters.
What excuses am I making. Nadull predominantly beats Feds when conditions favor him. He is a no show when conditions favor him.that a fact I already pointed that out.
He is declining because he isn't winning off clay is that so hard in previous years he was winning on all surfaced. In terms of title he did better in 05-07. Than 11/12. That I'd declining.
He beat fed in 09 AO. So he did it again in 2011. Doesn't say anything he didn't improve. He won 09 and lost 12.
He lost to fed at IW which he hasn't done since MIA 05. Outdoor HC.
Novak beat him in 08 AO.
So what Nalbandian beat in in 03 AO and USO.
Fact is Novak only competition since 2011 . When he became to dominate force is Declining Nadull and grand pa fed. And choker Murray. . He he.
Novak still couldn't beat the declining players on their favor surface .
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FEDERER 10 VS TONI NADAL 20
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Fed 2 nadull 13 fed is nadull CLAY TURKEY. THE REAL ERA 2003-2010.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:24 PM   #1161
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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What excuses am I making. Nadull predominantly beats Feds when conditions favor him. He is a no show when conditions favor him.that a fact I already pointed that out.

And Fed predominantly beats Nadal when the conditions favor him (which would be indoors I guess which is not as often used as clay or HC outdoors). What you say is true but it is meaningless and doesn't prove anything.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:31 PM   #1162
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

The idiots trying to float the Federer weak era stuff remind me of creationists spouting "Evolution is only a theory" and talking about stuff they just don't understand, like trying to use the crocoduck.

I'm embarrassed for them.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:34 PM   #1163
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

Why is this boring thread still going on?
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:40 PM   #1164
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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And Fed predominantly beats Nadal when the conditions favor him (which would be indoors I guess which is not as often used as clay or HC outdoors). What you say is true but it is meaningless and doesn't prove anything.
True . It doesn't prove anything . As it stands now nadull had the edge no one is denying that. However it doesn't
Diminish Feds achievement. It is a credit to nadull , especially for winning the close ones AO 09/Rome 06/Wimby 08. I have no problem admitting that because he is part of Feds ERA.
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FEDERER 10 VS TONI NADAL 20
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Fed 2 nadull 13 fed is nadull CLAY TURKEY. THE REAL ERA 2003-2010.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #1165
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

This thread needs to get back on topic or it will be closed.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #1166
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)


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Old 08-17-2012, 09:02 PM   #1167
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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To repeat again, he was getting owned by a teenage clay courter on hardcourts. What does that say about all the hardcourt players of the time?
Well, I think you can work this out yourself. In the year Nadal first beat Federer (2004), how many times did he reach the semi finals on hardcourts? Once. In Federer's peak years, how many times did Nadal make it past the QF of a hardcourt slam? None.

So, Nadal was beating Federer (albeit on slow surfaces), and yet was being stopped by these 'mugs'. The conclusion is that Nadal was winning, not because he was such a great hardcourt player (otherwise he would have done much better in this 'weak era'), but because he was a bad matchup for Federer in particular.

Quote:
Weak,weak,weak field of one slam wonders, 35 year old Agassi, mugs showing up in slam finals to be destroyed, teenage Rafa still learning the game etc...
Who cares? Lets all agree that Federer played mugs and wasn't tested at all.

The question is how would Fed have fared against tougher opposition? That question isn't answered by pointing out that Fed faced mugs.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:04 PM   #1168
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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I'm sure you could find more convincing pictures. Try harder .
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Say what you want about Federer playing Baghdatis and Gonzo in AO finals... But at least he won them
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:06 PM   #1169
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

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If everyone rotated answering to his/her posts, I wonder how long Greatness (lol) would continue to troll in here.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:23 PM   #1170
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Default Re: The Federer Decline Thread (Federer will drop to number 4 next year)

If winning so many matches, 17th GS and #1 is a kind of decline, sure why not, let it be. I want him to decline even more.
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