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Old 08-01-2012, 10:54 PM   #991
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingroger View Post
Yes but why would you write "Send picks to kingroger" even in big letters below the Order Of Play?

It's okay, I accepted the picks and I'm sorry if I do a horrible job due to personal commitments outside the computer and other management commitments on MTF but in my opinion there is absolutely no problem to read carefully. Seriously I don't understand this problem.

Anyway there have been weird circumstances, so we have an excuse for this as well

I know I'm not making friends with such postings but I gotta say that.
You are completely right here! It should be possible to send to the correct manager. But I do think that we might have to change the rule and make sure that anybody involved in the tournament can accept picks, so assistant manager, people who help out by posting the OOP, all these should be accepted.
Other people shouldn't!
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:49 PM   #992
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

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Originally Posted by rvugt View Post
You are completely right here! It should be possible to send to the correct manager. But I do think that we might have to change the rule and make sure that anybody involved in the tournament can accept picks, so assistant manager, people who help out by posting the OOP, all these should be accepted.
Other people shouldn't!
You can't make the assumption that a person posting OOP will be available to accept picks and transfer them to the manager at the start of play. This would mean whenever play starts you would have to have TWO managers awake.

Here's an example. The deadline is 2am my time. The regular manager (AdeyC) is unavailable 12 hours earlier (2pm) to post the OOP due to some committment (work, exams, hospital, whatever). At 2pm I am free to post the OOP, does this mean I have to be awake at 2am also in order to transfer picks to AdeyC? That would be impossible to do.
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:48 AM   #993
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Dear TT Board (and other interested players),

I love the game of TT, and the vast majority of players who play it. Its a nice distraction from real life, and enhances my (and most everyone's) love of the game of tennis. No one wins money playing this game, no one gets a better job or life situation for playing, most of us will never meet - we all play simply because we love tennis and this game. So I just want to share a few cents worth of thoughts, even if no one likely cares or will even read this. Just in case its not clear, this is triggered by this hilarious debate over the last few weeks about sending to the "correct" manager, something I find frankly ridiculous and utterly unnecessary, but it also goes deeper.

If anyone has read the last 100 posts in this thread, it becomes clear this game is at a crossroads. This goes beyond people who commit to manage tournaments, disappear after committing to manage for days, and then return to play sheriff, board members who decide to wield power or interpret rules for no reason, or players who complain about anything and never contribute to the game. This is about more.

The way I see it, we can go in two directions with the future of TT this December:

- We can accelerate a movement to develop a "game" that is based entirely on rigid rules, defined processes, and unwavering devotion to law and order - the equivalent of a corporate bureaucracy, or a scared government clinging to power. In this scenario, there are never excuses - only rules. There are never exceptions - only disqualifications and adherence to arbitrary dogmas. Any "mistake" or "oversight" is just too serious to overlook - its all rules, rules, and rules, and managers and the board are just there as enforcers. There are never mitigating circumstances - just errors that must be punished.

- OR we can perhaps stay closer to the spirit that has animated this game since its inception and continue to ensure it remains a GAME. In this scenario, we continue to solidify a set of rules but most importantly a set of principles that define how this game is played and how people are expected to act in this community - we don't let people abuse other players personally, we don't descend into anarchy and throw out all relevant rules, we make changes where the rules need clarification, and we realize that TT is just one aspect of people's lives - not something that should overtake it, but something that everyone should play because they enjoy it. To do this, we solidify rules that level the playing field for all those who play, but at the same time we ensure that flexibility and common sense prevail and that most importantly people ENJOY playing this game. SOMETIMES, we realize life can get in the way, and people may accidently send to the wrong manager, forget to put a player on a entry list, or format their picks properly.

Frankly, I'm losing interest in devoting time week in, week out to TT if a new guard of people will be able to decide we need to hold every player to a standard that 99% of players can't meet 365 days a year. I'm also not surprised the way we are heading that regular managers are a dying breed, and that for the average tournament to run now we are forced to have managers, co-managers, posters of the OOP, others to receive picks etc... this is not coincidence.

Let me be clear this isn't about one person, or one instance, nor do I expect anyone to care - but this is something that's been building for a while, and the Board needs to make a strong stance in December. Yes rules need to evolve and change - but the spirit of TT should remain what it was when the game was created - something where people have fun.

I don't need to list some of the core TT players that have stopped playing over the last years, nor the regular managers who decided it wasn't worth it anymore. Everyone knows who they are. But I can guarantee this list will continue to grow substantially in the next years unless we take a step back and decide to ensure we keep this game entertaining and fun.
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Old 08-02-2012, 05:10 AM   #994
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

As a manager I do support option two of ibreak4coffee's essay for leniency. However the players have to be lenient too. They cannot expect OOPs or differences within 1 minute. I am not joking when I say that.

I have had people demand an OOP before an OOP was even available, or the OOP had been out 1 minute they expect me to type the OOP in one minute. Then they complain about the order of the OOP because I didn't do enough research of the players in the 1 minute I was supposed to type it in.

Same with differences, I've had people ask for differences 1 minute after the deadline. I am expected to work out differences, missing picks, lucky losers and alternates in 1 minute.

Leniency is fine with me but it has to go both ways. If player wants to send to multiple managers on the one day that the main manager can't post the OOP, then they will have to expect differences to be late (especially their match). Otherwise managers will be awake at all hours trying to pass along information to each other and managers will just quit.

As an example, if you allow players to send picks to the OOP poster instead of the manager then I probably will never help another manager out by posting the OOP. And if I'm the only one available then there just won't be an OOP that day. There is no way I can make what should be a 10 minute commitment into a 12 hour one and possibly having to spend the night transferring picks.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:09 AM   #995
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Having read ibreak4coffee’s posting there’s a lot of sense spoken there. In the case of Vancouver – it was a situation which was certainly out of the norm. To me having in theory three managers/assistant managers especially for a Challenger is extremely unusual which I don’t think I’ve ever experienced since I’ve been playing the game. Whilst yes it was written in large letters to send to one manager, the Managers at that point were : Saturday – me, Sunday – kingroger, Monday – me, Tuesday – me, so for three out of the four previous days they’d been asked to send to me which I think makes it understandable for people to think they should send to me for Wednesday in this case, particularly as the third person had posted the OOP every day since the start of the event.

Speaking just personally as a relative newcomer to Managing, I am puzzled that there are so few people managing. Since I plucked up the courage to have a go myself – in my case it’s increased my personal enjoyment of the game a huge amount and I’ve got to know so many players that I never would have done if I hadn’t had tried out.

Of course there has to be a basic set of rules that are always stuck too (e.g. late picks never accepted). But absolutely of course there are some occasions when flexibility and common-sense must be shown, for example on occasions a brand new player will send picks incorrectly and in the wrong format a couple of times in the same event. In situations like that refusing to accept them the second time or penalising a new player is a self-defeating exercise – yes that players sent them in a wrong format but for the sake of a minute or two’s effort on my part is it worth instantly losing the engagement and enthusiasm of a first time player by laying down the law and refusing to accept them the second time? Of course not - to me it’s far more productive to spend the time to put them in the correct format and send that player a PM explaining how they should be sent and the reasons why, than to point-blank not accept them or penalising them because they’re in the wrong format.

I also agree with justafanYYC – in most cases managers get other people to post the OOP because the event in another time-zone, if nobody comes forward sometimes a player who’s never managed will say they’ll do it. That person posting the OOP might not have the time or want to be involved in the managing side of it and is just doing it to help out. If it meant that they’d be responsible for accepting picks too it will dissuade them from helping out in the first place.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:29 AM   #996
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

I always read everything in this thread, but don't post unless I feel I can say something constructive, so here's a suggestion.

Leave the rule that players must send to the correct manager, so if they don't it's entirely AT THEIR OWN RISK. Then to allow flexibility, if the pick recipient is able and willing to forward the pick to the manager BEFORE THE DEADLINE he may do so, but the onus remains with the player to READ.

No obligation on the pick recipient, so hopefully no arguments, and certainly no more waiting for differences in case someone else has the missing picks. For slams which have joint managers, they could agree between themselves how to proceed.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:55 AM   #997
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Just short reaction from my side:
I know that we shouldn't be rigid about the rules. But we should be consequent. If one time it is allowed for people to send to the incorrect manager, that the next time should be the same. But there should be rules, otherwise people who are nice on the forum will get more down than other people. This is actually the reason why we don't have wildcards yet.
About sending to the player who posted the OOP, it is not necessary that this person is online before the deadline. He can also come later and send the picks than. Diffs for LL will be late in this case, but I think it might be an option to change this in the rules.
And last, about players asking for OOP or diffs at the last moment, I think this is already much better than before. I managed a tournament lately and didn't post the diffs at the exact deadline, and nobody really complained. So, at least as manager this game has won me again!
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:19 PM   #998
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

rvugt: As a manager you know that LLs are a pain in the ass. If you have 6 missing picks and you don't know if those 6 picks are with the OOP poster or not.. it's almost impossible to proceed. Especially with the rules now that if two players against each other don't send, the draw shuffles to give the #1 seed a bye. It's something a manager shouldn't have to worry about (picks floating around in space).

AdeyC also makes a good point. What if a person who is not a manager wants to help out and post the OOP in a dire situation. He should then not be receiving picks.
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:15 PM   #999
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenoldie View Post
I always read everything in this thread, but don't post unless I feel I can say something constructive, so here's a suggestion.

Leave the rule that players must send to the correct manager, so if they don't it's entirely AT THEIR OWN RISK. Then to allow flexibility, if the pick recipient is able and willing to forward the pick to the manager BEFORE THE DEADLINE he may do so, but the onus remains with the player to READ.

No obligation on the pick recipient, so hopefully no arguments, and certainly no more waiting for differences in case someone else has the missing picks. For slams which have joint managers, they could agree between themselves how to proceed.
I think exactly this. The responsability for send to correct manager, is of the player.
The managers have much work for to worry this in all tournaments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justafanYYC View Post
rvugt: As a manager you know that LLs are a pain in the ass. If you have 6 missing picks and you don't know if those 6 picks are with the OOP poster or not.. it's almost impossible to proceed. Especially with the rules now that if two players against each other don't send, the draw shuffles to give the #1 seed a bye. It's something a manager shouldn't have to worry about (picks floating around in space).

AdeyC also makes a good point. What if a person who is not a manager wants to help out and post the OOP in a dire situation. He should then not be receiving picks.
LL is the principal problem for manager post the diffs in correct hour. When are more of 1 manager, is more difficult! If a player send to wrong manager, it is for the manager accept or not.
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Old 08-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #1000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direnan
LL is the principal problem for manager post the diffs in correct hour. When are more of 1 manager, is more difficult! If a player send to wrong manager, it is for the manager accept or not.
So why not make 1 hour early deadlines for 1st rounds? And even 2 hours for grand slams or 128-player brackets, I'd say...
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:26 PM   #1001
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

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Originally Posted by justafanYYC View Post
rvugt: As a manager you know that LLs are a pain in the ass. If you have 6 missing picks and you don't know if those 6 picks are with the OOP poster or not.. it's almost impossible to proceed. Especially with the rules now that if two players against each other don't send, the draw shuffles to give the #1 seed a bye. It's something a manager shouldn't have to worry about (picks floating around in space).

AdeyC also makes a good point. What if a person who is not a manager wants to help out and post the OOP in a dire situation. He should then not be receiving picks.
Forgot about the fact that the draw can change now if a lot of LL should get in!
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:55 PM   #1002
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

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So why not make 1 hour early deadlines for 1st rounds? And even 2 hours for grand slams or 128-player brackets, I'd say...
Good Idea. =)
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:15 PM   #1003
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

Believe it or not, I need someone to manage Vancouver again tomorrow. I will leave tomorrow morning 7.30am CEST and will return on Saturday 10am CEST.

I'm sorry but I cannot change it
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:50 PM   #1004
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

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Originally Posted by kingroger View Post
Believe it or not, I need someone to manage Vancouver again tomorrow. I will leave tomorrow morning 7.30am CEST and will return on Saturday 10am CEST.

I'm sorry but I cannot change it
As it's pretty short notice and you're probably not likely to get anyone else it's probably best if I do it for Friday. If it's possible that you can arrange for the OOP to be posted that'd be great - or if it's too short notice I can post the OOP in the morning UK time and take the picks, etc.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #1005
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers 2012 - August tournaments available

I can't. Work voluntary saturday =(
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