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Old 07-24-2012, 01:53 PM   #76
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Yes. The Swiss are going to feel the effects of third world immigration soon enough and that will all change. They will lose their rights and their culture. Just like the rest of Europe.

And I don't want you think I am totally bashing Singapore either. I actually greatly admire the fact that they cane hoodlums and vandals and it was a wonderful city to visit as a result of that. I wish we had that kind of common sense here.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:56 PM   #77
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Then it's up to the government to enact the appropriate laws and put in place strong enforcement measures. What, is your government paid by the taxpayers to sit around and do nothing?
No thanks, we already had a police state and an all powerful government. It's bad for the economy and it made a lot of people hopelessly incapable of taking care of themselves. Grown men are not supposed to have a nanny. Police can't be everywhere and help everyone.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:01 PM   #78
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Go ahead, and you could spend the rest of your life behind bars, according to Serbian law. Besides, if some real criminal were after you, I doubt you would even have the chance to get to your weapon. More likely some kid will find it and god help it then.
WTF are you talking about? Killing invaders is against the law? Or criminals? If it's him or me and my family I'll shoot, few years in prison won't stop me.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:09 PM   #79
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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They didn't die naturally, they were killed. Only a collateral damage in the process of conquering and improving the land - the land that had it's owner by the way, so murder and larceny. Fascinating though how you find reasons to justify it, to belittle the numbers, and to subscribe everything to propaganda. Admirable job.
The largest Indian armies never assembled more than 1,000-1,500 men. Most were not anywhere near that number. Not at any point. And every able-bodied boy and man they had fought. What does that tell you? That these great Indian nations had very few people. The entire combined forces of the Indian nations of the Great Plains could not assemble more than 1,500 men. And the entire Western Confederacy could not field more than 1,500 men, long before the big expansions. It's the myth of the Indian genocide. You and others of the PC era believe with no proof that these massive populations of Indians were destroyed. There was never that many. There was never a general mobilization against them, not at any point. They never faced an Army of the Potomac or even a smaller army that the original colonists built. If the US wanted the genocide of the Indians, it would have been done, no doubt about it. There are actually millions of them now, long after the Indian Wars ended. And they were always miniscule compared to the number of people that found homes here from overcrowded Europe and now other nations.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:28 PM   #80
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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So you don't understand or believe that the French Revolution was inspired and a direct result of the American Revolution. And that was the point I was making?

Direct result of the American Revolution? Where the heck did you go for your history lessons? I mean, seriously, way to go to totally discount the influence of great French thinkers like Voltaire and totally discount the social rot in France caused by the ancien regime, among other causes of the French Revolution. Sure, the American example helped in forming the belief that it could happen, but surely it's too much of a stretch, even for you, to claim that the French Revolution was a "direct result" of the American one.

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And I don't want you think I am totally bashing Singapore either. I actually greatly admire the fact that they cane hoodlums and vandals and it was a wonderful city to visit as a result of that. I wish we had that kind of common sense here.
You liked visiting Singapore because we cane people here? Did you attend a caning session or something? It's not common sense; it's an unnecessarily harsh punishment. But let's not get into that.

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No thanks, we already had a police state and an all powerful government. It's bad for the economy and it made a lot of people hopelessly incapable of taking care of themselves. Grown men are not supposed to have a nanny. Police can't be everywhere and help everyone.
Strong enforcement measures and a competent government do not equal a police state. The government's job is to govern, which includes enacting laws and putting in place measures to keep the country as safe as possible while balancing other competing rights and interests. Sounds like you'd rather live in an anarchical state instead.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:31 PM   #81
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

You've obviously never studied the French Revolution at all. It's pointless to try to educate someone that speaks on a topic that they know nothing about.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:32 PM   #82
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Are you seriously saying that there was one singular cause for the French Revolution?
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:35 PM   #83
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Not at all. I'm saying that the American Revolution set the example that the rest of what is now loosely called the free world followed. It was the first modern democracy, where the majority of citizens ruled with rights that were unheard of anywhere else in the world at the time. And are still unheard of in most of the world today.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:40 PM   #84
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Not at all. I'm saying that the American Revolution set the example that the rest of what is now loosely called the free world followed. It was the first modern democracy, where the majority of citizens ruled with rights that were unheard of anywhere else in the world at the time. And are still unheard of in most of the world today.
Setting an example is not the same as "a direct result of". If by the bolded part you were referring to the right to bear arms, then I totally agree - a bloody good thing in my opinion.

What other rights are unheard of in most of the world, I'm curious to know?
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #85
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom from unlawful search and arrest, due process, trial by jury (that I strongly disagree with BTW), property rights, self-defense laws, etc...

You do understand that most of the world is still ruled by oppressive governments with have little public rights? And even many that do have them to some degree are not guaranteed by law and could easily be taken away.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:47 PM   #86
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom from unlawful search and arrest, due process, trial by jury (that I strongly disagree with BTW), property rights, self-defense laws, etc...

You do understand that most of the world is still ruled by oppressive governments with have little public rights? And even some that do have them are not guaranteed by law and could easily be taken away.
You do understand that there are many other developed, democratic nations that respect those rights that you listed besides America, right? Even some developing countries respect some of those rights. I mean, what a shocker.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:50 PM   #87
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

And you do understand that that is the entire point of this whole little conversation? The US was the first nation of the modern world to enact such laws. And we had huge influence on creating them elsewhere and still do. That's the ENTIRE POINT.

And the US has always largely maintained those rights and never had an absolute tyrannical leader or government in large part because the population is not only freedom-loving, but also well-armed. Stripping that right would set a precedent that would undermine everything else. Especially when you are allowing such rights to be dictated by maniacs and the miniscule exceptions to the rule.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:52 PM   #88
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

trip, having lived in singapore for 13 years and the last year in the states, I can tell you that it is quite different.

Even if guns were banned, the fact is the US as a whole is too big and police response time is inefficient. It's not possible to have constant police patrols in areas, and lights are too cost-inefficient as a whole. As such, it's much more likely for muggings or other stuff. The same for home invasions, if some madman were to come smashing into your house, much less likely for someone to report it or what not. So people like to have arms for self-defense, which is not that ridiculous. Of course, the argument can be made that when guns are allowed, the attackers have guns too, but in self-defense occasions you probably still will have the upper hand.

As such I think it's fair for certain allowances for firearms.

What I do not agree with, however, are guns in public areas (like cinemas), or on the roads. Guns should be for self-defense and self-defense only. The argument that someone who had a gun in the cinema would have helped is stupid. Unless you're a military grade sniper or something, you're unlikely to hit your target in such poor visibility. The same goes for any crowded public area, you're only going to make it worse.

What I also don't agree with is the stupid thing that is the NRA and the stupid politicians (mostly republicans) who keep taking donations from that stupid organization. BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS AND BAN WEAPONS WITH LARGE NUMBER OF ROUNDS. That is so freaking instinctive.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:53 PM   #89
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

I don't understand though, in a country that is so perfect like America is, why would you need to buy guns to defend yourself.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:57 PM   #90
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Perfect? Whoever said that? No straw man bs here. There is plenty of violence and crime in the US. Gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens. It's the old cliche. Outlaw guns and then only the outlaws have guns.

And I've owned semi-automatic and converted assault weapons my entire life. And I've never used one on anyone else. Why should I have to give them up because of the actions of some loser in Colorado? I've always carried a concealed weapon for 8 years and never used it. Yet I should give up the right because of inner-city violence? Like I said, that's not the kind of nation I want to live in.
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