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Old 05-09-2012, 09:42 PM   #166
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
nationalism isn't necessarily a negative thing and many people claim to be nationalists or nationalistic. xenophobia is a fear/dislike of foreigners, etc and is clearly a negative thing.
i didn't say or think that you supported everything that they stand for. however, i find some of their views so distasteful that i would take a negative view of someone who could overlook those views because they agree with ukip on other matters.

and by the way, im not criticising party manifestos for not including everything. it is impossible to predict what is going to happen over a 4 or 5 year term in office, so as long as a party doesn't go directly against their manifesto, then they can do what they like. they just have to bear in mind that people haven't voted for them on those grounds, and should be held to account and scrutinised more closely in those instances.
Nationalism is a political movement that considers the nation as an absolute which the citizens should serve and bow to. JFK's quote: "Think of what you can do for the nation before thinking of what the nation can do for you" is typically nationalistic. Conscription is also the ultimate nationalistic act (thanks the French Revolution).

Xenophobia is the fear of foreigners.

It's not the same. Both are negative and none (as far as I know) apply to Farage.

The positive version of nationalism is independentism or sovereignism. Emmanuel Todd (who is a leftwinger but whom I really respect as an intellectual, he's brilliant) even coined the term "nationism" to refer to the belief in the existence of nations and borders.

I support Farage because of the EU exit and strictly for this. If a leftwinger also advocates EU exit, I would support him too. for the moment I see none. The French so-called "nationalists" (FN) are only remotely concerned with Europe. They'd rather keep their populist rants on immigration (which is linked with the EU, but they don't seem to realize this) and on moral values. They are MEP but they're always absent. So actually, they just get their 6000€/months and that's it. For them, the EU is just one topic among others. In my opinion, it should be the KEY topic of an election. Only Farage understood that. He's done a great job at the Euro Parliament.

I mean, let's just imagine General de Gaulle moving to London in June 1940. Many French patriots join him. Would you believe these people saying: "My general, I'd like to fight on your side but before I'd like to ask your opinion on gay marriage or the right for women to vote or should be increase taxes or cut spendings or what do you think of our coal mines near Valenciennes or this or that." Come on !

When I made the comparison between the Nazi regime and the EU here, Jimnik said I was a German nostalgitard who thinks Hitler's ideas were good in theory. In any case, it's not my fault if Mr Barroso considered the EU as an Empire. He's made that comparison before me. And from viewpoint, it's just the same, we have to fight for independence and popular sovereignty, whoever the enemy might be.

In France, they have François Asselineau. But unfortunately, he isn't media-friendly. While he's brilliant too. He's some sort of a French Farage. And he's got a gaullist approach to politics, which he's much more socially oriented than Farage's liberalism/libertarianism.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:07 PM   #167
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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It's not nonsense, it is fact. Go look at the GDP figures for 2010. You will see the economy was growing. Now it is not. The right love to retreat from facts that are inconvenient, however, that is not my problem

Austerity is necessary - AFTER growth has been restored. Austerity in a weak, non-growing economy turns a recession into a depression as it sucks what little confidence and demand there is from the system. We need to do what Lamont and Clark did in the 90s - policies for growth and THEN squeeze spending when growth returns. It worked then. It does work. The right refuse to believe the economic evidence and insist on hiding behind austerity dogma.
Brown ran a 12% budget deficit - the largest in the UK's history. The only way he could fail to deliver positive GDP growth with that much spending would have been to flush the money down the toilet.

Austerity is ALWAYS necessary. When will people learn even governments can't grow money off trees.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:14 PM   #168
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Liberalism is centrist policy. It combines aspects of both capitalism and socialism. The fact you associate it with laissez-faire underlines how left-wing you are.

You seem to confuse it with libertarianism, a radically different ideology
i'm not confusing it with anything. the word "liberal" regarding the economy is something i've only heard in america and it makes little sense to me. a "liberal economy" is a term sometimes used by those who are talking about laissez-faire style policies. you mock me for failing to understand liberalism, but i can assure you that the narrow definition of liberalism in relation to the economy that you give is not something which is universally thought.

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Poor "working classes". Always suffering.

I wonder what constitutes "working class" these days since the definition seems to change every few years. Soon the unemployed will join the club.
"working classes" as a term always included anyone who had the ability to work, therefore unemployed people have always counted. you are right though, the term's definition has changed over the years. that is largely because the industrial society about which marx was writing, has largely disappeared. people cannot be categorised in the same manner as they could in the mid-late 19th century.

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It's depressing to see just how very little historical perspective many people have these days. One really despairs soemtimes.
indeed.

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Such nonsense. It seems that now they're no longer in power, the left can retreat to their idealist roots where they're most comfortable. A place where there's lots of lovely free money to give to anyone who wants it and a magic button can be pressed that will result in economic growth. In the meantime they can continue the divisive line of trying to get the general public to despise the wealthy in society.

I'm sorry, but if all government spending was truly an "investment" as Labour always claimed, then why did we ever end up with a deficit in the first place? Government has NO MONEY, and if they keep taking money from society in taxes and "investing" it then we're literally going to have nothing left.

I'm so sick of all this claptrap about "austerity isn't working" .....when the only solution proposed by those peddling this lunacy is to SPEND MORE TAXPAYER MONEY - WHICH WOULD FURTHER NECESSITATE AUSTERITY MEASURES. I'm glad this French dude got in, now we can see just how (in)effective his socialist policies are (although i'm guessing he'll probably back down and say Merkel stole his mojo or something).

A reflection of humanity itself, growth will come only as a result of increased confidence. Public spending right now is not going to increase confidence, it'd appear desperate, it'd appear that they've only done it because nothing else appears to be working.

The solution lies in encouraging the private sector - but we're never going to succeed in doing that when some seem so intent on demonising them.
the left hasn't been in power in the uk for decades. blair largely carried on thatcherite policies. top rate of income tax was lower under him than thatcher, PFIs, which labour always vehemently opposed when out of office were increased exponentially, etc.

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Nationalism is a political movement that considers the nation as an absolute which the citizens should serve and bow to. JFK's quote: "Think of what you can do for the nation before thinking of what the nation can do for you" is typically nationalistic. Conscription is also the ultimate nationalistic act (thanks the French Revolution).

Xenophobia is the fear of foreigners.

It's not the same. Both are negative and none (as far as I know) apply to Farage.

The positive version of nationalism is independentism or sovereignism. Emmanuel Todd (who is a leftwinger but whom I really respect as an intellectual, he's brilliant) even coined the term "nationism" to refer to the belief in the existence of nations and borders.

I support Farage because of the EU exit and strictly for this. If a leftwinger also advocates EU exit, I would support him too. for the moment I see none. The French so-called "nationalists" (FN) are only remotely concerned with Europe. They'd rather keep their populist rants on immigration (which is linked with the EU, but they don't seem to realize this) and on moral values. They are MEP but they're always absent. So actually, they just get their 6000€/months and that's it. For them, the EU is just one topic among others. In my opinion, it should be the KEY topic of an election. Only Farage understood that. He's done a great job at the Euro Parliament.

I mean, let's just imagine General de Gaulle moving to London in June 1940. Many French patriots join him. Would you believe these people saying: "My general, I'd like to fight on your side but before I'd like to ask your opinion on gay marriage or the right for women to vote or should be increase taxes or cut spendings or what do you think of our coal mines near Valenciennes or this or that." Come on !

When I made the comparison between the Nazi regime and the EU here, Jimnik said I was a German nostalgitard who thinks Hitler's ideas were good in theory. In any case, it's not my fault if Mr Barroso considered the EU as an Empire. He's made that comparison before me. And from viewpoint, it's just the same, we have to fight for independence and popular sovereignty, whoever the enemy might be.

In France, they have François Asselineau. But unfortunately, he isn't media-friendly. While he's brilliant too. He's some sort of a French Farage. And he's got a gaullist approach to politics, which he's much more socially oriented than Farage's liberalism/libertarianism.
i agree, nationalism and xenophobia isn't the same. people can claim to be nationalist without expecting a universally negative response, whereas nobody who wants political support will ever claim to be xenophobic.

xenophobia is certainly a criticism commonly used against ukip, mainly because of their views on "britishness", immigration, islam and europe. personally, i think that the latter is unfair as there are perfectly valid reasons not to be part of the eu, but the other three are certainly areas where i am distinctly uneasy with what ukip says.

personally, as someone with leftist views, i am opposed to the eu as well. first and foremost it is a free trade zone, and despite doing some work which should be applauded (by those on the left), it is also a barrier to change. moreover, the eu lacks the democratic legitimacy that it needs to make the far-reaching deicisons which it does.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:20 PM   #169
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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i'm not confusing it with anything. the word "liberal" regarding the economy is something i've only heard in america and it makes little sense to me. a "liberal economy" is a term sometimes used by those who are talking about laissez-faire style policies. you mock me for failing to understand liberalism, but i can assure you that the narrow definition of liberalism in relation to the economy that you give is not something which is universally thought.
I can assure you either you're living under a rock or your flag is very misleading. I'm finding it difficult to believe you're studying politics when you can't make sense of a very basic term. Liberalism is used every day all over the English speaking world. The Liberal Democrats are the centrist party of the UK, as are the Liberals in Australia. But in reality almost every major political party in the western world is closer to liberalism than any other ideology. The most commonly used term in politics, you should probably get a grip on it.


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"working classes" as a term always included anyone who had the ability to work, therefore unemployed people have always counted. you are right though, the term's definition has changed over the years. that is largely because the industrial society about which marx was writing, has largely disappeared. people cannot be categorised in the same manner as they could in the mid-late 19th century.
This is exactly what I mean, almost EVERYONE fits into that category, short of new-born infants, severe handicaps and old age pensioners. By your definition billionaire bankers, monarchs, politicians, unemployed beggars, even certain animals and sophisticated robots would all be considered working class.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:34 AM   #170
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

I hate Socialism!
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:59 AM   #171
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

For all you austerity people:

http://www.americablog.com/2012/05/a...AMERICAblog%29
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:11 PM   #172
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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I can assure you either you're living under a rock or your flag is very misleading. I'm finding it difficult to believe you're studying politics when you can't make sense of a very basic term. Liberalism is used every day all over the English speaking world. The Liberal Democrats are the centrist party of the UK, as are the Liberals in Australia. But in reality almost every major political party in the western world is closer to liberalism than any other ideology. The most commonly used term in politics, you should probably get a grip on it.



This is exactly what I mean, almost EVERYONE fits into that category, short of new-born infants, severe handicaps and old age pensioners. By your definition billionaire bankers, monarchs, politicians, unemployed beggars, even certain animals and sophisticated robots would all be considered working class.
i don't study it. i have a degree in it. i managed to get my head around it to the extent that i got an honours degree in the subject whilst doing countless essays on liberalism and on the economy. so whilst you may disagree with how i perceive the term, i've managed quite well enough by defining it in the manner that i've already explained to you. and yes, "liberal" is a widely used term, but it tells you very little about a political party's views on the economy. the liberal in liberal democrats is to do with rights, liberties, etc....it doesn't relate to the economy. many parties which proclaim themselves to be liberal are centrists, but some are form the left and some from the right.

ok, i exaggerated a little. maybe "everyone who has the ability to work and who requires to work to make a living". that would rule out monarchs and landed gentry, etc. but like i said, i agree with you.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #173
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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xenophobia is certainly a criticism commonly used against ukip, mainly because of their views on "britishness", immigration, islam and europe. personally, i think that the latter is unfair as there are perfectly valid reasons not to be part of the eu, but the other three are certainly areas where i am distinctly uneasy with what ukip says.

personally, as someone with leftist views, i am opposed to the eu as well. first and foremost it is a free trade zone, and despite doing some work which should be applauded (by those on the left), it is also a barrier to change. moreover, the eu lacks the democratic legitimacy that it needs to make the far-reaching deicisons which it does.
What do they say about "Britishness"? I'd rather believe "Britishness" exists if I were a Brit.

Immigration should be clamped down in times of crisis, and more particularly illegal immigration. I don't say I'm glad to say this, it's a more of a pragmatic measure. Of course, it shouldn't concern students, those who marry a "national" or those who come with a contract because there are some sectors where demand>supply but generally speaking, if we don't have jobs to offer, we can't decently welcome them. If that overall economic situation changes, then we can start welcoming migrants again. Well that's my opinion, at least. What makes me feel uneasy, is those who believe immigration clampdown is the key. In my opinion, it's an issue that should be discussed, but one issue among others.

I know a bit about Farage's view on Islam and I have to say that I disagree with him. He talked about the burqa ban. I am in favour of the burqa ban but for the same reason. He mentions such things as secularism and Ladies' right. In my view, it's just demagogical. Burqa should be banned for safety reasons. Everyone should be identifiable any moment. The rest is just hot air. And it doesn't only concern burqa (masks like those of the "Anonymous" should be banned for the same reason).


I fully agree with your last paragraph. But I'm still wondering who on the left in Britain, is Eurosceptic. Galloway, perhaps? On the continent, the leftist are always smoking us out with their belief we can "change" that Europe and making it more "social". This is obviously impossible since we have to negotiate with 26 other countries. All we need do is exit. Perhaps we need a coalition government for this just like you had in 1940 (and the French in 1945).
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:03 PM   #174
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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What do they say about "Britishness"? I'd rather believe "Britishness" exists if I were a Brit.

Immigration should be clamped down in times of crisis, and more particularly illegal immigration. I don't say I'm glad to say this, it's a more of a pragmatic measure. Of course, it shouldn't concern students, those who marry a "national" or those who come with a contract because there are some sectors where demand>supply but generally speaking, if we don't have jobs to offer, we can't decently welcome them. If that overall economic situation changes, then we can start welcoming migrants again. Well that's my opinion, at least. What makes me feel uneasy, is those who believe immigration clampdown is the key. In my opinion, it's an issue that should be discussed, but one issue among others.

I know a bit about Farage's view on Islam and I have to say that I disagree with him. He talked about the burqa ban. I am in favour of the burqa ban but for the same reason. He mentions such things as secularism and Ladies' right. In my view, it's just demagogical. Burqa should be banned for safety reasons. Everyone should be identifiable any moment. The rest is just hot air. And it doesn't only concern burqa (masks like those of the "Anonymous" should be banned for the same reason).


I fully agree with your last paragraph. But I'm still wondering who on the left in Britain, is Eurosceptic. Galloway, perhaps? On the continent, the leftist are always smoking us out with their belief we can "change" that Europe and making it more "social". This is obviously impossible since we have to negotiate with 26 other countries. All we need do is exit. Perhaps we need a coalition government for this just like you had in 1940 (and the French in 1945).
they use rhetoric about "britishness" being "diluted" by multi culturalism, etc. personally, as a scot who supports scottish independence and an independent ireland, naturally i'm not particularly a lover of "britishness". however, the whole notion of britishness doesn't make much sense to me. from what i've seen, even the scots who are pro-union tend to be less inclined to salute the union jack, pledge allegiance to the crown, etc, etc. apart from that, regional differences in england (and throw in wales into the bargain) would make me question whether there actually is something that we can term "britishness" and if there is such a thing, then despite my passport saying british, i'm sadly lacking of this quality.

i can see the logic behind your views on immigration, etc, but i always feel that political parties have a duty to make their point in ways which are less likely to inflame the public. we've had attacks on immigrants, asylum seekers, etc, and racism hurled at people following inflammatory front pages of tabloids, etc. i think that anyone who puts the focal point of our troubles on these people and on religious groups are dangerous. i'm certainly not saying that ukip are the worst for that, but they certainly tread that line.

i guess galloway is the only one. in scotland we had the scottish socialist party which gained some ground in the scottish elections and could have been a major player in an independent country. however, they imploded, leaving nothing behind. galloway's "coalition" is a mish-mash affair which is basically a front for the socialist workers party to recruit new members whilst providing galloway with a platform. it is pretty much an irrelevant and worthless body. in the past, the left wing of the labour party was euro sceptic, but nowadays the left of the labour party isnt very left anyway
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:20 PM   #175
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Oh OK I see I've underestimated the separatist movement in Scotland.

I'm also in favour of an Irish reunion and I have sympathies for all Gaelic nations. But I mistrust the SNP because of their group at the Euro Parliament.

They are a member of the EFA (European Free Alliance), which means those parties who advocate a Europe of regions, and thereby undermining the power of the member states which are sandwiched between Europe and the regions.

EFA is led by Eric Defoort who is also a member of the N-VA (Flemish separatists). The leader of the N-VA, Bart De Wever, is the guy who perfectly understood what I've stated above (about the sandwich). For example, he thinks that the Belgian Foreign policy should be a matter of the EU (so for the Baroness ! lol). He wants Belgium to disappear without we be conscious of it. That means he does NOT want Flemish independance - unlike many think - since he wants her to pledge allegiance to the EU.

In this party you also have a Catalan separatist party and a Basque party who are both Franco-Spanish, seeking to create a Euroregion astride on the administrative border between France and Spain, border that is bound to disappear in the long run. These Euroregions are promoted by the Association of European Border Regions (AEBR, which gets subsidies from the EU, of course), led by Mr Karl-Heinz Lambertz, who is the Minister-President of the small German-speaking community of Belgium. It's all scary to me, actually.


So I would say I very much like to see an independent Scotland but I'd rather have a truly independent Britain than a "Europeist" Scotland.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:09 AM   #176
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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I hate Socialism!
Me too.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:10 AM   #177
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

I hate working, therefore, I love socialism, too.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #178
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Pure socialism is not possible and therefore all the tries to apply it in real life suck, but capitalism mixed with socialism like they do in Canada or the Nordic countries works and it puts the shit that USA and its pure capitalism are to shame.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:12 PM   #179
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Pure socialism is not possible and therefore all the tries to apply it in real life suck, but capitalism mixed with socialism like they do in Canada or the Nordic countries works and it puts the shit that USA and its pure capitalism are to shame.
Canada is more capitalist than USA.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:49 PM   #180
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Canada is more capitalist than USA.
Lol what, they have a good healthcare system.
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