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Old 05-04-2012, 11:57 PM   #91
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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I actively condemn all public actions of anarchy so rioting/protesting/complaining is a definite no-no. I would tell them to fuck off and get back to work.
i don't know what's more troubling for me. the fact that you think that protesting is a form of anarchy or that you'd tell the protestors to "fuck off and get back to work".

it seems to me that you not only are disconnected from the economic theory, you are also totally disconnected from reality.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:27 AM   #92
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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i think you are confused. as it is pictured in all economics textbooks, job providers represent the demand and job seekers (along with the ones who are already working) are the supply. this is so because companies are willing to buy (i.e. they demand) labour which is sold by the workers (i.e. they are the supply).
Depends which way you look at it. In my explanation I was looking at it from the point of view of the worker. Job seekers (workers) demand the job and job providers (employers) supply the job. Fewer workers reduces demand, hence jobs become "cheaper" to the worker (less work, more pay). Fewer employers reduces supply, hence jobs become "more expensive" to the worker (more work, less pay).


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as for your description of how the labour market works, i think it leaves out a lot of relevant info. for starters, when assessing the labour market we have to begin with the notion that it ain't perfect... far from it actually. what we have in most nations are monopsonies (the reverse of monopoly: the suppliers are too many in relation to the buyers and therefore the latter tend to be in a position of relative power) which is of course inefficient both in the salaries paid as in the companies' output. thus, in this scenario, when the government sets an apropriate minimum wage, it doesn't necessarily discourage unemployment. card and krueger were the first to study this phenomena and since then many economists have taken note of it.

this is one of the many examples in which economic 101 theory doesn't apply to the real world, which will always be infinitely more complicated and always imperfect.
For me the minimum wage is not a significant issue. Many countries have them but they're usually so low as to not affect the economy in a major way. I believe Australia has the highest minimum wage at $15/hour. This is much too high but they can afford it because their citizens are generally in high skilled high paid jobs so few people are affected.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:33 AM   #93
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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i don't know what's more troubling for me. the fact that you think that protesting is a form of anarchy or that you'd tell the protestors to "fuck off and get back to work".

it seems to me that you not only are disconnected from the economic theory, you are also totally disconnected from reality.
There's more to "reality" than protesting, complaining, bitching, whining. If people worked harder and complained less the world would be a happier place. I've already said everything in my replies to Chris and Martin on the previous page, so you can review those. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Economics, like many facets of life, is very simple when you break it down to its core principles. Socialism is a destructive force in this regard because it complicates things dramatically and creates a whole field of unnecessary study. Same goes for politics but that's just human nature.
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Old 05-05-2012, 04:59 AM   #94
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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There's more to "reality" than protesting, complaining, bitching, whining. If people worked harder and complained less the world would be a happier place.
i fully disagree. for starters, it's a moral duty to to rise up to unfairness and injustice and to that regard the people have the power to demand the government for change or even to overthrow the ones in power if their political stances are too far away from the people's basic aspirations.

fortunately history shows us that humanity doesn't share your values. otherwise who knows? europe might still be ruled by feudal kings and your country would still be a british colony....

i might reply to your other post tomorrow
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #95
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Listen to yourself. Now you're saying my extreme-capitalist views have come from being brainwashed by moderate-capitalist media. That alone doesn't make sense but your entire argument is based on assumptions that people are morons and follow whatever they read and watch. It's very cynical and very typical of left-leaning minorities in western countries.

The BBC is a government-run artificially subsidized left-leaning propaganda machine. The vast majority of British newspapers are liberal to socialist (except the telegraph which I don't read either). It is actually very impressive that the UK has maintained a 50% free market economy.
i'm not saying that people are morons. i'm saying that you can't complain about other people swallowing propaganda when you've done the exact same.
please get your terms right. the newspapers are not socialist. socialism is an entirely different economic system to capitalism. things like the nhs, extensive benefits, an income-based tax system....these are not in existence to do away with capitalism, they are in existence to make capitalism "fairer" (whether you agree with them or not). this is called social democracy, and by definition, social democracy is a capitalist ideal. not pure capitalist, not extreme capitalist, but capitalist rather than socialist. no mainstream media outlets are in favour of pulling down the economic system and replacing it with socialism. many are in favour of the welfare state and advocate social democracy, but that IS capitalism.
and what does "liberal" mean? the extreme right and extreme left can both claim that term and everything in between always claims that term. calling the media "liberal to socialist" is not only meaningless, but it avoids the issue that i was raising. left-leaning or not, the media is capitalist.

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If I complained about every issue I did not see in a manifesto, I'd be permanently marching in the streets.

People don't protest because they're outrageously dissatisfied about an issue. They protest because they enjoy taking to the streets, chanting, wreaking havoc etc. Anarchy is a basic animal instinct. Condoning it is like condoning a felony just because the criminal had a "reason".
erm, ok. the vast majority of protest is peaceful and certainly has nothing to do with anarchy. and as has already been said, you criticise me for implying that people are moronic and followers (when i never said any such thing), before yourself saying that people have no free will and only protest as they are following their basic animal instinct. organised, peaceful protest is about as far removed from anarchy as you can get, by the way.
condoning demonstrations againt wars, pay cuts, etc is different from condoning illegal actions simply because one is legal and the other is not. indeed, sometimes legal demonstrations take place to voice anger at illegal actions, such as the war in iraq.

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There's more to "reality" than protesting, complaining, bitching, whining. If people worked harder and complained less the world would be a happier place. I've already said everything in my replies to Chris and Martin on the previous page, so you can review those. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Economics, like many facets of life, is very simple when you break it down to its core principles. Socialism is a destructive force in this regard because it complicates things dramatically and creates a whole field of unnecessary study. Same goes for politics but that's just human nature.
if people worked harder and complained less, we'd still have 19th century sweatshops, we'd still have people living on a pittance, we'd still have high rates of death by curable illnesses in the "1st world", we'd still have only a handful of people able to vote, women would still be second class citizens, blacks would still be slaves.....i could go on forever. yet you think it is better that people shut up, work unquestioningly (again, an argument which proves you are the one who thinks that people are moronic), and get on with things, even where things are clearly wrong and unfair?
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Old 05-05-2012, 02:59 PM   #96
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

As some posters have already written, essence is not about names and ready-made ideological concepts, it is about actual situation and government policy in particular case (country) in particular time.

The goal should be to find the right balance between freedom and solidarity. Nordic counties are probably the closest to that, which doesn't mean that their model can be applied successfully everywhere because of cultural differences.

Today it is easy to bash socialism and so with good reason. But I don't think it's fair to forget role of socialism in fight against colonialism and fascism/nazism. Also in some counties socialism (or so-called socialism, as I explained in the first paragraph) gave good results - China before socialism was devastated prey of colonial powers (UK, Japan). Now they are becoming the biggest economy in the world and their people have the highest level of human rights than ever in their very long history (things should always be observed in their context, not in some ideologically imposed artificial context of "universal" human rights).

Also, capitalism apologist seed to forget that numerous failed states in Africa, Latin America and Asia are capitalist countries. They always point on one dozen of richest countries where it is hard to say how much of their wealth is due to capitalism and hard work and how much due to colonialism and plunder.

Things seems to be more gray and blear than apologist of any paper concept (capitalism, socialism) would like to admit.
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:39 PM   #97
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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(things should always be observed in their context, not in some ideologically imposed artificial context of "universal" human rights).
Indeed. It is all relative to the path travelled.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:32 PM   #98
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

I don't get this thread at all.
The current global money crisis is due to overexerting CAPITALISM more than anything else. Power to the Money Grabbers, oh yeah!

What the hell is wrong with the concept of thought of a just-a-bit fairer distribution of cash and opportunities between all, and a bit more of protection to those who haven't been the luckiest around?
Why is that so frightning to some - read: the Rich & Famous Lucky -, as I see over here in this thread?

A bit more compassion and a bit more equal sharing of chances, why the hell is campainging for a little more socialist distribution of chances and cash so frightning to those who already benefit so much because of their talents?

I don't get it.
If this post designates me as a commie - well so be it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:11 AM   #99
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
i fully disagree. for starters, it's a moral duty to to rise up to unfairness and injustice and to that regard the people have the power to demand the government for change or even to overthrow the ones in power if their political stances are too far away from the people's basic aspirations.
"Unfairness and injustice" is a point of view, that's why we have democracy. If 40% disagree with 60% it doesn't give the 40% the right to demand change and overthrow government.


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fortunately history shows us that humanity doesn't share your values. otherwise who knows? europe might still be ruled by feudal kings and your country would still be a british colony....
History shows that socialism sucks. The sooner people come to realize this the better.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:22 AM   #100
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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History shows that socialism sucks. The sooner people come to realize this the better.
Oh yeah man, capitalism is soooooo much better.
Enron, ABN AMRO, Vestia, etc, anyone?

The Rich, Fortunate & Lucky grabbing grabbing grabbing the CASH oh yeah. And nothing's going to stop them.
You get fired as a banker -> no problem, you'll get hired in no-time again to do the same lousy job for 10,000 euro a month, once again.
You get fired as a blue collar worker -> ah damn mate. That sucks. Good luck in getting an unemployment-fee, eh? If you're over 45 years of age, don't even ever bother about trying getting a new job again, as hard as you try.

The losers - aka the normal people, only can at it all.

Yeah socialism - imho, just trying to have a mite more truly equal distribution of luck, talent and resorces among folks, indeed sucks.
End the Sarcasm Alert.

Who are you folks opposing to this principle, all sorority's kids???
I guess so. Count yourselves blessed folks.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:33 AM   #101
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i'm not saying that people are morons. i'm saying that you can't complain about other people swallowing propaganda when you've done the exact same.
please get your terms right.
And I'm saying this is nothing more than a paranoid accusation. You've still provided no evidence that I've been "swallowing propaganda" when my views contradict almost everything we watch and read in the media.


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the newspapers are not socialist. socialism is an entirely different economic system to capitalism. things like the nhs, extensive benefits, an income-based tax system....these are not in existence to do away with capitalism, they are in existence to make capitalism "fairer" (whether you agree with them or not). this is called social democracy, and by definition, social democracy is a capitalist ideal. not pure capitalist, not extreme capitalist, but capitalist rather than socialist. no mainstream media outlets are in favour of pulling down the economic system and replacing it with socialism. many are in favour of the welfare state and advocate social democracy, but that IS capitalism.
and what does "liberal" mean? the extreme right and extreme left can both claim that term and everything in between always claims that term. calling the media "liberal to socialist" is not only meaningless, but it avoids the issue that i was raising. left-leaning or not, the media is capitalist.
That IS where you are wrong. A welfare state that only interferes with 50% of the economy is a liberal system. It consists of both capitalist and socialist aspects. I stopped reading and watching British media after calls for nationalizing banks, capping private sector pay and returning to a 1970s labour model where trade unions hold the nation to ransom. This leans far more towards socialism than capitalism.



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erm, ok. the vast majority of protest is peaceful and certainly has nothing to do with anarchy. and as has already been said, you criticise me for implying that people are moronic and followers (when i never said any such thing), before yourself saying that people have no free will and only protest as they are following their basic animal instinct. organised, peaceful protest is about as far removed from anarchy as you can get, by the way.
condoning demonstrations againt wars, pay cuts, etc is different from condoning illegal actions simply because one is legal and the other is not. indeed, sometimes legal demonstrations take place to voice anger at illegal actions, such as the war in iraq.
Like I said (I'm repeating myself over and over again), in a truly democratic society, I will always condemn protesting when people have official peaceful means to resolve issues. Not once have I ever seen a protest in a western nation with rational demands. No matter what the government does, there will always be a minority finding an excuse to complain about something. Peaceful protesting shouldn't be made illegal, but in a proven democratic society I will never respect it.


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if people worked harder and complained less, we'd still have 19th century sweatshops, we'd still have people living on a pittance, we'd still have high rates of death by curable illnesses in the "1st world", we'd still have only a handful of people able to vote, women would still be second class citizens, blacks would still be slaves.....i could go on forever. yet you think it is better that people shut up, work unquestioningly (again, an argument which proves you are the one who thinks that people are moronic), and get on with things, even where things are clearly wrong and unfair?
Because those were NOT proven democratic societies. A system in which certain minorities have no say is not democratic. I would completely condone protesting in Cuba, North Korea, Iran or any society in which totalitarian regime was enforced on the people. Comparing 21st century protests on bankers pay to 19th century fights for black rights is nonsensical.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #102
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Oh yeah man, capitalism is soooooo much better.
Enron, ABN AMRO, Vestia, etc, anyone?

The Rich, Fortunate & Lucky grabbing grabbing grabbing the CASH oh yeah. And nothing's going to stop them.
You get fired as a banker -> no problem, you'll get hired in no-time again to do the same lousy job for 10,000 euro a month, once again.
You get fired as a blue collar worker -> ah damn mate. That sucks. Good luck in getting an unemployment-fee, eh? If you're over 45 years of age, don't even ever bother about trying getting a new job again, as hard as you try.

The losers - aka the normal people, only can at it all.

Yeah socialism - imho, just trying to have a mite more truly equal distribution of luck, talent and resorces among folks, indeed sucks.
End the Sarcasm Alert.

Who are you folks opposing to this principle, all sorority's kids???
You should move to a socialist country. No greed, just millions of people starving to death and dissidents tortured in concentration camps. But as long as bankers aren't making millions, that's clearly all that matters.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:46 AM   #103
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I don't get this thread at all.
The current global money crisis is due to overexerting CAPITALISM more than anything else. Power to the Money Grabbers, oh yeah!

What the hell is wrong with the concept of thought of a just-a-bit fairer distribution of cash and opportunities between all, and a bit more of protection to those who haven't been the luckiest around?
Why is that so frightning to some - read: the Rich & Famous Lucky -, as I see over here in this thread?

A bit more compassion and a bit more equal sharing of chances, why the hell is campainging for a little more socialist distribution of chances and cash so frightning to those who already benefit so much because of their talents?

I don't get it.
If this post designates me as a commie - well so be it.
i don't think there is anything wrong with this thought at all... i used to think this way too... maybe one day still might...

but, looking at the current predicament as objectively as i can i would say that it is not capitalism we live in at the moment... capitalism was never even given a chance the moment you burn regulations by the truckload and allow criminals aka banksters responsible for pushing hundreds of millions into poverty worldwide to walk off scot free - all while some prick slaps you with a €160 for a late parking fine...

the modern western plutocracy is not really capitalism - although capitalism was an important tool in the rise of the creature we know today...

i do sympathise with you post though sunset, because the power structure in today's world scarily resembles the power structures during feudal ages...
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:01 AM   #104
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

^^ Thanks fast-clay, you seem to have understood my point.

Once again - I'm not claiming that socialism is a 'better' system than capitalism.
My point is just that I feel that the common folks seem to get f*cked in whatever system, and my personal aim is just to battle for the common folks to get their fair share in knowledge, chances for improvement in their personal situations, and hence, cash.

With the current money crisis and rather ugly right-winged popularism in politics in Europe going on at the moment over here (ugh... remember the 1930's? the elders in my family sure do! ), yes, I sympathasize for a more left-winged opposition, be it socialism - I don't care.
I oppose to the current 'richer-get-richer'-politics.
That makes me a 'socialist'? Okay.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:05 AM   #105
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

As an economics student who's looked quite a bit into the crisis, I can confidently say that it had very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with non-transparent financial instruments and thus a gross misinterpretation of risk combined with poor incentive systems and a faulty way of how credit agencies work. On a free market, this crisis wouldn't have happened.

Besides, capitalism is a word often misused. At it's core, it means that people have the right to own property and machines used for production. Almost every country in the world is capitalist.

Now, it's altogether a different question how much a state should be a part of the economy and society and where in the society should the state take part.
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Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
Somewhere out there, there is a homeless person who once took betting advice from GSMnadal
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