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Old 05-04-2012, 03:50 PM   #76
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Soviet was a Success story and the Yanks got riled because of that. For the first time they saw somebody standing upto them. Soviet rattled the Americans. And hence they started working overtime just to bring Soviet down and got obsessed with it. They sowed the seeds of the Modern Islamic Terrorism to get even with the Soviets.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #77
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Minimum wage causes structural unemployment but that's in a perfect situation where the supply of work could fit in term of skill the demand of work from companies. In our situation where a lot of unskilled people are unemployed and unoccupied jobs needs some specific skills, get rid of mimimum wage wouldn't lead to reduce the unemployment but only cut down low wages. That works in theory but not in practice.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #78
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Socialism represses protesting more than capitalism, but that's beside the point. In a democracy public opinion is made to count through the electoral system. Going onto the streets and trying to force opinion on people while causing widespread disruption is anarchy.

Electoral system are not fool-proof. For example in Countries like India, Where there are too many segments of Population that have different voting pattern. So there exist a case where wishes of an entire segment of population gets over ridden by the Majority of Population. So Public protest is all that which remains to register their disapproval.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:49 PM   #79
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

The key concept here is freedom.

The best system will be that which maximises the freedom of the citizens. Pure socialism fails at doing that, but pure capitalism does too.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:10 PM   #80
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Are you really from France?

I've got to see what the propaganda machine has been doing to you guys over there.
you're one to talk about propaganda.
you seem to have swallowed the capitalist propaganda that we're all subjected to hook, line and sinker. "capitalism rocks" "everyone can be rich" "once you're 21 you should be on your own".

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Old 05-04-2012, 08:14 PM   #81
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Socialism represses protesting more than capitalism, but that's beside the point. In a democracy public opinion is made to count through the electoral system. Going onto the streets and trying to force opinion on people while causing widespread disruption is anarchy.
oh, and this point is just plain stupid. you can argue that you've got a point when its about something that the government has pledged to do, of course, but where it is an issue that has come up without being in a manifesto or being discussed widely prior to the election (such as the iraq war, for example), then nobody has given the government a mandate to act. they might have the final say, but attempting to shape their view and actions makes perfect sense. democracy isn't about casting a vote every 4 or 5 years and leaving the politicians to get on with doing whatever they feel like up til the next election.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:15 PM   #82
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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you're one to talk about propaganda.
you seem to have swallowed the capitalist propaganda that we're all subjected to hook, line and sinker. "capitalism rocks" "everyone can be rich" "once you're 21 you should be on your own".

What capitalist propaganda? You think BBC and CNN are libertarian? Don't be an idiot.


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oh, and this point is just plain stupid. you can argue that you've got a point when its about something that the government has pledged to do, of course, but where it is an issue that has come up without being in a manifesto or being discussed widely prior to the election (such as the iraq war, for example), then nobody has given the government a mandate to act. they might have the final say, but attempting to shape their view and actions makes perfect sense. democracy isn't about casting a vote every 4 or 5 years and leaving the politicians to get on with doing whatever they feel like up til the next election.
Bitch, moan and whine until you get what you want. You might as well live in a tent outside Westminster.

I feel sorry for you. With that attitude you'll be miserable for the rest of your life.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:20 PM   #83
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Electoral system are not fool-proof. For example in Countries like India, Where there are too many segments of Population that have different voting pattern. So there exist a case where wishes of an entire segment of population gets over ridden by the Majority of Population. So Public protest is all that which remains to register their disapproval.
There's more to the electoral system than 5 year general elections.

This isn't even about socialism or capitalism anymore. Sounds like you're complaining about democracy.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #84
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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What capitalist propaganda? You think BBC and CNN are libertarian? Don't be an idiot.



Bitch, moan and whine until you get what you want. You might as well live in a tent outside Westminster.

I feel sorry for you. With that attitude you'll be miserable for the rest of your life.
capitalist propaganda is all around us simply because capitalism is all around us. i didn't say that the bbc and cnn are libertarian, but all for-profit media is by definition, capitalist. when such a huge amount of the media is pro-capitalist, then it stands to reason that what we read, what we watch, what we hear, is all pro-capitalist. i never said it is all pro-purest form, laissez-faire capitalism, but it is pro-capitalism nevertheless.

i don't think i displayed a negative attitude. or a miserable one. all i said is that it is a democratic right to attempt to influence the government by voicing one's views about a number of topics. if a certain matter isn't included in a manifesto, but the government of the day still tries to address that matter, then where the public dislike it, and did not give a full mandate for the government to act in that way, they should protest. apart from anything else, if nobody protests, then the government may not even realise that a substantial number of people are opposed to their actions.

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There's more to the electoral system than 5 year general elections.
erm, that was what i said when you said you feel sorry for me. it is you who seems to think that you vote and then the government can do whatever it wnats.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:18 PM   #85
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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capitalist propaganda is all around us simply because capitalism is all around us. i didn't say that the bbc and cnn are libertarian, but all for-profit media is by definition, capitalist. when such a huge amount of the media is pro-capitalist, then it stands to reason that what we read, what we watch, what we hear, is all pro-capitalist. i never said it is all pro-purest form, laissez-faire capitalism, but it is pro-capitalism nevertheless.
Listen to yourself. Now you're saying my extreme-capitalist views have come from being brainwashed by moderate-capitalist media. That alone doesn't make sense but your entire argument is based on assumptions that people are morons and follow whatever they read and watch. It's very cynical and very typical of left-leaning minorities in western countries.

The BBC is a government-run artificially subsidized left-leaning propaganda machine. The vast majority of British newspapers are liberal to socialist (except the telegraph which I don't read either). It is actually very impressive that the UK has maintained a 50% free market economy.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:20 PM   #86
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i don't think i displayed a negative attitude. or a miserable one. all i said is that it is a democratic right to attempt to influence the government by voicing one's views about a number of topics. if a certain matter isn't included in a manifesto, but the government of the day still tries to address that matter, then where the public dislike it, and did not give a full mandate for the government to act in that way, they should protest. apart from anything else, if nobody protests, then the government may not even realise that a substantial number of people are opposed to their actions.
If I complained about every issue I did not see in a manifesto, I'd be permanently marching in the streets.

People don't protest because they're outrageously dissatisfied about an issue. They protest because they enjoy taking to the streets, chanting, wreaking havoc etc. Anarchy is a basic animal instinct. Condoning it is like condoning a felony just because the criminal had a "reason".

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Old 05-04-2012, 10:34 PM   #87
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Listen to yourself. Now you're saying my extreme-capitalist views have come from being brainwashed by moderate-capitalist media. That alone doesn't make sense but your entire argument is based on assumptions that people are morons and follow whatever they read and watch. It's very cynical and very typical of left-leaning minorities in western countries.

The BBC is a government-run artificially subsidized left-leaning propaganda machine. The vast majority of British newspapers are liberal to socialist (except the telegraph which I don't read either). It is actually very impressive that the UK has maintained a 50% free market economy.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
If I complained about every issue I did not see in a manifesto, I'd be permanently marching in the streets.

People don't protest because they're outrageously dissatisfied about an issue. They protest because they enjoy taking to the streets, chanting, wreaking havoc etc. Anarchy is a basic animal instinct. Condoning it is like condoning a felony just because the criminal had a "reason".
There's just as little free will in your story of animalistic instinctivism as there is in (your distorted portrayal of) Chris84's account of media bias. For someone who seems to implicitly subscribe to Hayekian arguments, wouldn't you agree that this is logically inconsistent?

According to all major indices of democracy (Freedom House, Polity IV etc.), freedom of assembly is not conceived of as a factor that perverts political decision-making.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:58 PM   #88
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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There's just as little free will in your story of animalistic instinctivism as there is in (your distorted portrayal of) Chris84's account of media bias. For someone who seems to implicitly subscribe to Hayekian arguments, wouldn't you agree that this is logically inconsistent?

According to all major indices of democracy (Freedom House, Polity IV etc.), freedom of assembly is not conceived of as a factor that perverts political decision-making.
We're getting quite "deep" here. I never said freedom of assembly should be illegal, especially since it already is illegal in many socialist regimes and, as you said, that would make me inconsistent. But I'll almost always condemn it in proven democratic societies, just like I condemn any other stupid choices people make. Obviously people have the right to make mistakes, as long as they accept the consequences.

The real freedom is the freedom to pursue happiness, without enforcing unhappiness on others. This is where I draw the line between freedom and state intervention. Everyone has the right to be greedy, lazy, proud, lustful, selfish etc as long as it doesn't interfere with the happiness of others. So yes there's room to freely reduce to basic "animalistic instinctivism" as you call it but without moving all the way to anarchy or savagery.
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:28 PM   #89
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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don't worry mate, i believe it is everybody's born right to have an adequate education... for when this is seen to, then there are no excuses... not even healthcare comes close...

the state should concern itself with refereeing the playing field, not fixing the full time score... for when that is taken care of, everyone plays ball...
yeah, i can stand behind this

that said, our visions are coloured by our own surroundings. i live in one of the most free-market oriented countries in the world and we have one of the most unequal wealth distributions as well. it's obvious that my country could have good results turning a further to the left than a country like australia... let's not even talk about scandinavia
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:53 PM   #90
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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You mean a government imposed minimum wage? I guess I don't but let me explain myself.

The way the job markets should work is much like any other market where there's supply (job providers) and demand (job seekers). Hence "job providers" posting job vacancies. Then "job seekers" bid against eachother to get the vacancy. When the market is booming minimum wage automatically rises, when crashing minimum wage falls.

Hence a solution in which the minimum wage fluctuates depending on strength of the economy would work more efficiently than artificially assigning a single value based on subjective opinion.
i think you are confused. as it is pictured in all economics textbooks, job providers represent the demand and job seekers (along with the ones who are already working) are the supply. this is so because companies are willing to buy (i.e. they demand) labour which is sold by the workers (i.e. they are the supply).

as for your description of how the labour market works, i think it leaves out a lot of relevant info. for starters, when assessing the labour market we have to begin with the notion that it ain't perfect... far from it actually. what we have in most nations are monopsonies (the reverse of monopoly: the suppliers are too many in relation to the buyers and therefore the latter tend to be in a position of relative power) which is of course inefficient both in the salaries paid as in the companies' output. thus, in this scenario, when the government sets an apropriate minimum wage, it doesn't necessarily discourage unemployment. card and krueger were the first to study this phenomena and since then many economists have taken note of it.

this is one of the many examples in which economic 101 theory doesn't apply to the real world, which will always be infinitely more complicated and always imperfect.
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