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Old 03-10-2012, 03:05 AM   #751
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

I don't get a pension.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:27 AM   #752
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
so in 2008, back when lehman went bust, you would have wanted the governments to stand idly by?

just imagine for one second what the world would look like today. imagine the scope of the crisis IF politicians across the board hadn't swooped in and at the very least averted a meltdown of epic proportions. we're in crisis mode alright, but chances were we could've headed straight into the 18th century (with the us and the uk leading the pack), with nations collapsing left and right and poverty rates skyrocketing.

yes, governments spent to much. but someone had to bail out the world. it's the banks that virtually sunk the balance sheets in the first place.

btw i know what that "stable" meant. still kinda funny to me.

"our current judgement says: you suck. our outlooks says: you will still suck in the future."
only a decent democracy can survive the power that has swung to the money masters...
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:02 AM   #753
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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only a decent democracy can survive the power that has swung to the money masters...
so iceland has made it and scandinavia will. what about the rest of us?
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:35 PM   #754
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

youth unemployment update: spain taking back the top spot.

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Old 03-13-2012, 11:53 AM   #755
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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so iceland has made it and scandinavia will. what about the rest of us?
here's a modern day hero to brighten your day* mate...



*although the content may not
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:37 PM   #756
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

remember this?

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update:



things just keep getting better. there's no way out for berlin. merkel is virtually forced to keep the bailout frenzy going. by dismantling the euro today, german taxpayers would need to cope with losses of over €1 trillion immediately. greece is way ahead of the pack, but accroding to the pic above spain and italy are catching up quickly.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:01 PM   #757
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

well yeah for people that understand statistics it's really bad and bailing out countries that has done decades of tax fraud and shitty budgeting costs insane amounts of money.

The problem with many countries are that they have been ran like crap for a looooooong time. The decision makers in those countries have been living in denial. They had the numbers, they knew about the budget deficits, they knew about all the negative trends. Then the day when they can't pay wages then they start to do things they should have done years ago? Give me a break. If they had acted in time it would have been less painful and a helluva lot cheaper.

In the end all these years of mismanagement can't be paid for on short notice. That's why the numbers look so freaking awful even compared to the GDP of a major financial power like Germany. After bailing out banks, then bailing out countries one just wonders what Europe will have to rally to bail out next. It's too much cold hard cash. Those resources was probably needed elsewhere and could lead to other problems the decisonmakers in Europe now put on the next line of decision makers.

The youth unemployment is ofc bad and that's even a problem in Sweden. I do think the healthcare business will soak up a lot of people the next 10-20 years as the population in Europe only gets older and older. Problem is that young people don't want to work in that line of business. Everyone wants to work in media or doing something innovative and fun.

Sad truth is that hard boring work and high tax is what will save Europe. There are no more shortcuts. Bailouts can buy time but Europe and especially southern Europe needs to accept that it's a global economy now. Adapt or watch the jobs disappear to Asia or what not. The competition has skyrocketed and Europe can't pay for "free-riders" with high unemployment and crap to trade.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:34 AM   #758
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

I'm very curious to see what Greece will look like in 10 years time.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:40 AM   #759
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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The youth unemployment is ofc bad and that's even a problem in Sweden. I do think the healthcare business will soak up a lot of people the next 10-20 years as the population in Europe only gets older and older. Problem is that young people don't want to work in that line of business. Everyone wants to work in media or doing something innovative and fun.

Sad truth is that hard boring work and high tax is what will save Europe. There are no more shortcuts. Bailouts can buy time but Europe and especially southern Europe needs to accept that it's a global economy now. Adapt or watch the jobs disappear to Asia or what not. The competition has skyrocketed and Europe can't pay for "free-riders" with high unemployment and crap to trade.
If that were true Europe wouldn't keep lagging behind America the way it's been for the last 60 years. Europeans generally take the boring government and manufacturing jobs. In the entertainment and futuristic industries they lag miles behind.

Good truth is that hard boring work and high tax will make the crisis even worse. Europe needs to start adapting for the future and forget the old 20th century industries.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:04 AM   #760
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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I'm very curious to see what Greece will look like in 10 years time.
it won't look near as good as it could if they defaulted, cleaned house and then sought re-entry to the eu... but, of course as we know that was not an option...

i am wondering if anyone read this today from the New York Times...? pretty damning...

WHY I AM LEAVING GOLDMAN-SACHS

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/wh...n-sachs-186001
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:46 PM   #761
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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If that were true Europe wouldn't keep lagging behind America the way it's been for the last 60 years. Europeans generally take the boring government and manufacturing jobs. In the entertainment and futuristic industries they lag miles behind.

Good truth is that hard boring work and high tax will make the crisis even worse. Europe needs to start adapting for the future and forget the old 20th century industries.
What makes you think Europe has been lagging behind? Do you really measure economic performance by whether jobs are interesting or not or how many blockbuster movies an economy produces? You think Europes problems are solved by entertainment? As boring as it sounds, hard work and taxation are the only things that can turn around the vicious cycle, the huge debts that have been building.

Besides, the futuristic industries have hardly kept the US citizen from having huge debts themselves. While the US GDP growth has been impressive compared to EU countries, it´s been fueled by borrowed money, which is the primary resons fot the whole credit crisis.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:56 PM   #762
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

well, in jimmy's defense, i do believe the whole risk taking thing is quintessentially american. that's what made the growth of the whole information technology sector possible. there's a reason why apple, google and facebook were founded in california - instead of bavaria, lombardy or brittany.

then again, narrowing it down is obviously complicated. nothing "genetic" about it. in fact, most big players in silicon valley are either first - or second-generation immigrants, hardly the average representative of the us of a.

add to that stuff like the huge homogenous market. give sweden ~ 300 mil people and its new media sector would easily match america's. when it comes to patents and trademarks, per capita most european countries easily outdistance america anyways (so do japan and several other asian countries). the one thing truly american is the all-out perfection in marketing and branding. nobody will touch them on that. ever.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:57 AM   #763
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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If that were true Europe wouldn't keep lagging behind America the way it's been for the last 60 years. Europeans generally take the boring government and manufacturing jobs. In the entertainment and futuristic industries they lag miles behind.

Good truth is that hard boring work and high tax will make the crisis even worse. Europe needs to start adapting for the future and forget the old 20th century industries.
I'm having a little swedish perspective here since I can't really talk for other young people in europe but in this country a too big part of the new generation wants to work with entertainment and not those classic manufacturing and engineering jobs.

I think many people get blinded by hollywood and the US entertainment business just because it's so big and powerful. California alone would be one of the world's biggest economies and much bigger than most european countries.

Yet in Sweden what is needed is civil engineers, engineers, IT specialists and so on.

What is not needed is fashion people, journalists, desingers, hair stylists and all those things many young people aim for because they want to have "fun" work


In time Europe can probably transition but what is needed is stop the drain and stop the flow of jobs abroad and to Asia. Can't just say "ohh lets outcompete US in entertainment and let everything be made in China/Taiwan/Korea"

Germany for example is awesome because of the manufacturing and high skill within things like the car industry. 1 job in the German car industry is probably 10 other jobs in Germany. That's how it works. Those high end manufacturing companies are solid gold for a country. It creates jobs for suppliers, sub-suppliers and so forth in a full value chain. That type of business must be kept in Europe at all costs and not be outsorced

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Old 03-16-2012, 01:24 PM   #764
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

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If that were true Europe wouldn't keep lagging behind America the way it's been for the last 60 years. Europeans generally take the boring government and manufacturing jobs. In the entertainment and futuristic industries they lag miles behind.

Good truth is that hard boring work and high tax will make the crisis even worse. Europe needs to start adapting for the future and forget the old 20th century industries.
Historically, America has always attracted visionaries who don't care about higher authorities, so new, daring, and well, - entertaining ideas have always been valued more in America. It takes a vision to pack and sail across the Atlantic in the first place. In Europe it's been more like: Aha, you devise something, some new ideas you have, you must be plotting against the God, king, president, bishop, mayor. Burn them at the stake

I am slightly kidding, but there is some truth in it, in the sense that was how the starting points used to look like. And after the war, well, especially back then it was so visible.. if we compare the movies, for example the great Italian neorealism movies just after the WW2, great art, but so bleak, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_neorealism, with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_system_%28film%29 we see two entirely different worlds, and it's not about money.

Basically, Europe destroyed itself in the two world wars. The damage can be only partially repaired. It was easier to rebuild buildings, but the sense of limits and insecurity has remained, even after the collapse of the Berlin wall. That wall was a good picture of Europe, not just in terms of conflicting ideologies. Europeans are generally less flexible and less confident than Americans, and 60 year time is a short period in historical perspective.

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Europe needs to start adapting for the future and forget the old 20th century industries.
There is a Serbian saying: If grandmother had balls, she wouldn't be a grandmother anymore.

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Old 03-24-2012, 12:03 AM   #765
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Default Re: Financial clusterfuck in Europe

what's that coming over the hill, is it a monster...? is it a monster...?

http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2012/03/th...#comment-16414

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The ECB swallowed the market


Around a black hole there is what is called an event horizon. It is the point beyond which you can no longer turn back. In Hollywood films the event is often made rather dramatic with lots of shaking and sirens, as if it was like the lip of an approaching waterfall. It isn’t. In reality there would be nothing to mark it, no sign or apparent change. The Event Horizon would be hard to notice, much like a Tsunami out at sea. Just a small ripple you might not notice until it was passed.

And so it is in debt as well. In even quite large quantities debt can be fairly harmless. But beyond a certain accumulated mass it changes. There is now, I think, enough debt in the Fed, the Bank of Japan and the ECB that each of them is in the process of becoming a debt black hole. That is, the debt in them is so massive that it is gravitational, sucking at any and all of the debt and finance around it pulling more and more in to itself.
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