1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESULTS - Page 4 - MensTennisForums.com

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:41 PM   #46
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

This stat just proves what all the elder experts in the sport have been saying all along: the quality of serving on average has improved immensely since the 90's. Sure, you always had the huge servers but some of the other guys, especially Latin players had fucking jokes of a serve. They had the kick serve that was so effective on clay but that didn't do shit at Wimbledon since WB had a super low bounce and still kind of does given that most serves are hit pretty quick and no matter what, they still skid through...

It's still wrong to slow it that much though. There's not one slam that rewards servers right now out of 4. Yep, you read that right, we almost had 3 once, which was wrong as well, went to 2 for a longer period of time and now there is zip.

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:47 PM   #47
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
This stat just proves what all the elder experts in the sport have been saying all along: the quality of serving on average has improved immensely since the 90's. Sure, you always had the huge servers but some of the other guys, especially Latin players had fucking jokes of a serve.
That's an interesting point, I mean a point to look more at, but Nyctennisfan also made some stats about players having more than 85% points won on first serve, etc, which don't fit with that imo.

Also I don't agree with the word "just" : there's much more in those stats,

for instance I'm still amazed about the fact that a Sampras won so few points on second serve comparing to Agassi and comparing to the best players nowadays, Federer especially but even Roddick was used to winning more points on second serve than Sampras.

Clearly that doesn't fit with some "cliches".

That % of points won on second serves is interesting to me.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:55 PM   #48
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

Well it depends. Did you watch those players through a whole year? Not youtube highlights, to the point where you know their games and how they match up as you do with Nadal and Federer now.

I'm willing to bet that few in this thread could say that.
Sampras played some very risky tennis a lot of the times, and he was a streaky returner. He had matches where he would pull some insane returns out of the blue and others where he would let much more inferior players hang in the matches relatively close. If you want to use a very loose comparison, think of a Isner of today.
Agassi was different, he was a pure baseliner, always had issues with his serve, but was a guy that you wouldn't want to trade from the baseline with.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
Well it depends. Did you watch those players through a whole year? Not youtube highlights, to the point where you know their games and how they match up as you do with Nadal and Federer now.

I'm willing to bet that few in this thread could say that.
Sampras played some very risky tennis a lot of the times, and he was a streaky returner. He had matches where he would pull some insane returns out of the blue and others where he would let much more inferior players hang in the matches relatively close. If you want to use a very loose comparison, think of a Isner of today.
Agassi was different, he was a pure baseliner, always had issues with his serve, but was a guy that you wouldn't want to trade from the baseline with.
Well I already watched tennis when Sampras was there if that's what you mean, I started watching in the early 80s, although there's a period in the end of the 90s and beginning of the 00s where I was less interested, and surely I'm more interested and have more access generally today.

But well, what I mostly meant in my post is that the stat about more points being won on second serve now is one of the stats which you can't "just" explain by what you said about some poor servers in the past.

There's much more in those stats than what you said, and I encourage people to be curious, more curious than what you meant "well it just says what everybody with an average IQ and having watched tennis knows : that just can be explained by ..."

There's more than that
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:15 PM   #50
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

You have one convoluted way of expressing yourself. Are you gonna go out for a whole page about how I put "just" in one of my posts? Really?...

Anyway, I'll aggregate my points below:

- Wimbledon is significantly slower today with a much higher bounce than what it was in the 90's thus facilitating slow conditions where the "average" tennis player has a lot of time on the ball, relatively speaking. Racket technology has a say on control not on how quick a tennis court plays. Sure, I won't deny that part of why there was so much S&V in the 90s was that control from the baseline was not a given like it is today.

- A fast slam is desperately needed. I'll extend this idea and say that a fast court "season" is needed even more.

- The players that were playing tennis in 1994 at Wimbledon were predominantly speaking, offensive minded, not grinders like they are today. And that was not the result of Wimbledon being super duper fast but more of a tradition that was embedded in the sport much earlier.
If you made Wimbledon faster today I would guarantee you that it would take quite a few years before some of the players adopted S&V effectively again on that court. Things don't just happen from one day to another.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:39 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
If you made Wimbledon faster today I would guarantee you that it would take quite a few years before some of the players adopted S&V effectively again on that court. Things don't just happen from one day to another.
It wouldn't happen at all. Nobody would change their entire style of play for one tournament, no matter how important - particularly with modern rackets/strings making approaching the net a risky proposition no matter how fast the surface.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #52
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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It wouldn't happen at all. Nobody would change their entire style of play for one tournament, no matter how important - particularly with modern rackets/strings making approaching the net a risky proposition no matter how fast the surface.
You don't understand how greatly a low bounce affects a baseliner. If you don't have a rhythm, you can't trade from the back. Standing behind can be easily more dangerous than trying to get in and finish the point.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:47 PM   #53
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

better racket technology ==> better and bigger serves with high percentages.....meaning breaks of serve would almost be impossible on fast grass if the match is between even two decent servers.....i said breaks of serve and not service returns because better racket technology should also account for better gets and control on the return of serve.....however the return part also involves anticipation and you get much lesser time to react compared to past.....so the return is overshadowed by the serve.....

so the only possible solution was to either slow down surfaces or limit the racket technology.....i think grass is still grass and good servers and good volleyers(those who can punch deep volleys and not just clueless drop volleys all the time) have enjoyed playing on this grass too.....

the speed of the game needed to be compensated and they thought that the best way was to do it by slowing down surfaces.....limiting the racket technology to a point would have been the best solution in my honest opinion.....but ITF tie ups with corporates forced them to slow down the surfaces rather than limit racket technology which was not desirable for business.....
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
You don't understand how greatly a low bounce affects a baseliner. If you don't have a rhythm, you can't trade from the back. Standing behind can be easily more dangerous than trying to get in and finish the point.
Given modern rackets, you'd have to be talking about courts where the ball hardly bounced at all to make it worth while for a player to change his whole game style for one tournament (maybe something like US Open style grass courts of the early 70's). Wimbledon courts have never been that way - I remember watching highlights of Borg v Gerulaitus in the 77 SF and when they were in baseline rallies the ball was often bouncing shoulder high.

S&V is also something you don't become good at just by doing it every now and then (i.e. at one tournament). The great S&V players like Edberg, Rafter, McEnroe, Newcombe et al used it as a main tactic throughout the year.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:52 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

For the overall game, it's not that surprising that serve has become more dominant - watching Raonic's matches you see how sparse good returners are outside of the very top. Other than Djokovic and Murray, all of the top returners seem to be clay courters for obvious reasons.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:16 PM   #56
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
better racket technology ==> better and bigger serves with high percentages.....meaning breaks of serve would almost be impossible on fast grass if the match is between even two decent servers.....i said breaks of serve and not service returns because better racket technology should also account for better gets and control on the return of serve.....however the return part also involves anticipation and you get much lesser time to react compared to past.....so the return is overshadowed by the serve.....

so the only possible solution was to either slow down surfaces or limit the racket technology.....i think grass is still grass and good servers and good volleyers(those who can punch deep volleys and not just clueless drop volleys all the time) have enjoyed playing on this grass too.....

the speed of the game needed to be compensated and they thought that the best way was to do it by slowing down surfaces.....limiting the racket technology to a point would have been the best solution in my honest opinion.....but ITF tie ups with corporates forced them to slow down the surfaces rather than limit racket technology which was not desirable for business.....
THis. Totally agree. People still don´t get it that some slowing down of surfaces was neccessery for next years. But they did it too much.. this is just joke - so slow, but if they let old grass-fast grass, quicker balls for Wimbledon, we would have here in today´s conditions 2x as big ace-fest than in 90s. Not only modern better racquets made serve even bigger-more important shot, but another aspect is physicality of tennis. Everyone is working hard on gym and so on-simply even average tennis player now is much stronger physically than before, so if we had old grass here and new racquets-new players from GYM - 1st serve would be unreturnable serve 90% of the time, if not unreturnable than it would be easy point with 1-2punch combo with easy FH to open court.

I think Raonic is nice example here- he is one of best servers, but my point here is compare Raonic at AO and San Jose for example, how many more free points he got on faster surface, now if we had old grass were the bounce is much lower, and the ball really slips there, his 1st serve would be service winner or unreturnable serve 95% of the time i think.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:25 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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THis. Totally agree. People still don´t get it that some slowing down of surfaces was neccessery for next years. But they did it too much.. this is just joke - so slow, but if they let old grass-fast grass, quicker balls for Wimbledon, we would have here in today´s conditions 2x as big ace-fest than in 90s. Not only modern better racquets made serve even bigger-more important shot, but another aspect is physicality of tennis. Everyone is working hard on gym and so on-simply even average tennis player now is much stronger physically than before, so if we had old grass here and new racquets-new players from GYM - 1st serve would be unreturnable serve 90% of the time, if not unreturnable than it would be easy point with 1-2punch combo with easy FH to open court.

I think Raonic is nice example here- he is one of best servers, but my point here is compare Raonic at AO and San Jose for example, how many more free points he got on faster surface, now if we had old grass were the bounce is much lower, and the ball really slips there, his 1st serve would be service winner or unreturnable serve 95% of the time i think.
He didn't play any decent returners at San Jose either.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:36 AM   #58
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

Those of you saying fast and low bouncing grass with today's serving would cause twice the aces that the 90s saw, please watch this.



This was fast, old-school grass, which even had quite a few bad bounces. Returning was obviously much more difficult on it, yet they both seem to rally from the baseline for most of the match, and don't get aced twice per game.

Tomic isn't a world class server or returner, but Feds is, so Tomic surely shouldn't be able to get a racquet on his serve on fast, low-bouncing grass.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #59
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Those of you saying fast and low bouncing grass with today's serving would cause twice the aces that the 90s saw, please watch this.



This was fast, old-school grass, which even had quite a few bad bounces. Returning was obviously much more difficult on it, yet they both seem to rally from the baseline for most of the match, and don't get aced twice per game.

Tomic isn't a world class server or returner, but Feds is, so Tomic surely shouldn't be able to get a racquet on his serve on fast, low-bouncing grass.
I know what i wrote, of course 2x as many aces, unreturnable isn´t exactly the number- i was just comparing that if we had old grass it would be much more about serve. I watched that tie SWI-AUS, bad bounces, much faster surface as Wimbledon for sure and i remember statitstics much more aces and service winners than normally Fed has. Even Hewitt had much better serve statistics than he normally does. Yes they played from baseline, because neither of them is used to play SV from that tie, but i can bet my house, that if Llodra played that tie - FRAN-AUS for example that he would loved to play there. And Federer did have much more aces, unreturnable than he normally does. Tomic and Hewitt aren´t exactly great servers, Wawrinka the same.but all 3 of them had great serve statistics.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:49 AM   #60
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Default Re: 1994 WIMBLEDON ("FAST GRASS") vs. 2011 WIMBLEDON ("SLOW GRASS"): INTERESTING RESU

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Those of you saying fast and low bouncing grass with today's serving would cause twice the aces that the 90s saw, please watch this.



This was fast, old-school grass, which even had quite a few bad bounces. Returning was obviously much more difficult on it, yet they both seem to rally from the baseline for most of the match, and don't get aced twice per game.

Tomic isn't a world class server or returner, but Feds is, so Tomic surely shouldn't be able to get a racquet on his serve on fast, low-bouncing grass.
That was a very much an old school grass court with poor bounces and the Hewitt vs. Wawrinka match was just baseline tennis on bad bouncing grass in addition to this.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
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