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Old 02-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #46
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

Echoes, are you French, are you going to vote? we are anonymous here, so no reason not to talk about such things openly. But sorry if I'm too curious.

You are right, but it's all about change. It's not Sarkozy's fault (quite a character isn't he, taken straight from a comic book) that times have changed drastically, so much that de Gaulle and Sarkozy seem to come from different planets, and yet both of them are presidents of one country, within one lifetime. Truly amazing, can it be right? No more heroes and there is hardly anything worth of sacrifice (if there ever was such a thing). So much soldier cemeteries and monuments.. for what... I don't know who was/is right, just saying what I see, trying to make something out of it.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #47
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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The difference between General de Gaulle and his successors is that he had a great sense for patriotism in the economic, the military and the political domain.

Of course, what he did in Algeria was ugly but he knew what the Independance of his country meant. Independance from the Nazis, from the Allied, from the EEC (ex EU), from bankers, from NATO, etc.

His speeches gathered hundreds of thousands of people (Phnom Penh Speech). He put Quebec on the map, in less than 24 hours.

Had he but not negotiated with the FLN and abandoned the Harkis, he could be in contention for greatest statesman of all time. I still have great admiration for him though.


How on earth can Sarkozy be compared to him? The guy who made up a Treaty that his own people rejected two years before ?? The guy who got back to military commannd while De Gaulle had so much trouble getting out of ?? The guy responsible for the death of 82 French soldiers in Afghanistan while Villepin was preparing their return. The guy who signed an agreement with the Brits for military nuke !

He should've long been removed !
CdG deserves credit for the role he played freeing France in WW2, certainly a great patriot. But unfortunately, much of this attitude spread into the peace time where it didn't belong. He became a little paranoid of foreign influence in France, trying to snub both America and the Soviets. But it's understandable growing up with Americans, British and Germans fighting each other in your own backyard. It simply needs to be kept in context.

Obviously Sarkozy didn't have to lead France out of a German occupation so the situations are totally incomparable. Peace-time leadership doesn't test strength of character in the same way as war leadership. In Britain you have to go back to Churchill to find a leader everyone respected. No-one ever gives credit to peace-time leaders.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:38 PM   #48
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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Echoes, are you French, are you going to vote? we are anonymous here, so no reason not to talk about such things openly. But sorry if I'm too curious.
I'm not French. I'm a Belgian but French-speaking, so I'm quite interested and informed about French politics. I don't think I would vote if I were French (perhaps for Dupont-Aignan if he gets the 500 signatures, and yet). I don't vote in my country.

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You are right, but it's all about change. It's not Sarkozy's fault (quite a character isn't he, taken straight from a comic book) that times have changed drastically, so much that de Gaulle and Sarkozy seem to come from different planets, and yet both of them are presidents of one country, [i]within one lifetime. Truly amazing, can it be right? No more heroes and there is hardly anything worth of sacrifice (if there ever was such a thing). [b]So much soldier cemeteries and monuments.. for what... I don't know who was/is right, just saying what I see, trying to make something out of it.
De Gaulle was President in peace time: 1958-1969 (Only had to deal with the Algerian War and I'm the first to say he did bad things there).

Soldiers fought WWII for Independance and Freedoms. The Conseil national de la Résistance had a great political programme. But France is no longer independant and no longer free (EU, NATO). Though it's not Greece yet but is bound to be.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
CdG deserves credit for the role he played freeing France in WW2, certainly a great patriot. But unfortunately, much of this attitude spread into the peace time where it didn't belong. He became a little paranoid of foreign influence in France, trying to snub both America and the Soviets. But it's understandable growing up with Americans, British and Germans fighting each other in your own backyard. It simply needs to be kept in context.

Obviously Sarkozy didn't have to lead France out of a German occupation so the situations are totally incomparable. Peace-time leadership doesn't test strength of character in the same way as war leadership. In Britain you have to go back to Churchill to find a leader everyone respected. No-one ever gives credit to peace-time leaders.
Sarkozy had to lead France out of EU occupation, which he didn't do, quite on the contrary. He's a Vichyst/collaborationist.

De Gaulle knew all too well that the US financed the project of a supranational Europe (he constantly talked about the external federator), which is now imposing its views on each member state against their own free will. He was right to get out of Nato internal command. He remained in the alliance only because of the Cold War context. He thought France should completely get out of it when Warzaw Pact disappeared. Of course his successors didn't do that at all. Quite on the contrary they want a CSDP, subordinated to NATO. Had the CSDP existed in 2003, I would have countrymen in the Iraqi mudbath !!



Peace time conflicts ARE the same as war time conflicts.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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(perhaps for Dupont-Aignan if he gets the 500 signatures)


This guy is a living joke, you can't be serious.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #50
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

For want of a better candidate, of course. Asselineau won't get the 500.

But from a guy who fears backlashes of the exit of Euro, nothing serious can come out.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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For want of a better candidate, of course. Asselineau won't get the 500.

But from a guy who fears backlashes of the exit of Euro, nothing serious can come out.
Are you so disconnected from the reality for believing that the exit of the euro would be a good thing? Exiting the eurozone would increase considerably the cost of our debt, and would lead to a competitive devaluation war in Europe. Give up euro is plain nonsense.
And don't act like if you were in the majority about this subject because you're in the minority.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:28 PM   #52
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I'm not French. I'm a Belgian but French-speaking, so I'm quite interested and informed about French politics. I don't think I would vote if I were French (perhaps for Dupont-Aignan if he gets the 500 signatures, and yet). I don't vote in my country.
OK, thanks. I was in Brussels 2 weeks ago, btw. Went to Delirium club mostly, drinking Belgian beer, what else, like any other visitor, total cliche, but it was enjoyable and successful visit Shame I don't speak French at all.

@Grassquet, are you going to vote?
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:09 AM   #53
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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Sarkozy had to lead France out of EU occupation, which he didn't do, quite on the contrary. He's a Vichyst/collaborationist.

De Gaulle knew all too well that the US financed the project of a supranational Europe (he constantly talked about the external federator), which is now imposing its views on each member state against their own free will. He was right to get out of Nato internal command. He remained in the alliance only because of the Cold War context. He thought France should completely get out of it when Warzaw Pact disappeared. Of course his successors didn't do that at all. Quite on the contrary they want a CSDP, subordinated to NATO. Had the CSDP existed in 2003, I would have countrymen in the Iraqi mudbath !!


Peace time conflicts ARE the same as war time conflicts.
Are you seriously comparing Nazi occupation to so-called "EU occupation"? I thought you were one of the more sane people on here.

CdG's fight for nuclear independence and rejection of NATO was purely a matter of national pride. From an economic and defensive standpoint it made little sense. The US drove Germans out of France and funded much of France's post war infrastructure. From a moral standpoint it made even less sense.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:16 AM   #54
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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@Grassquet, are you going to vote?
Yes
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:30 PM   #55
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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Are you so disconnected from the reality for believing that the exit of the euro would be a good thing? Exiting the eurozone would increase considerably the cost of our debt, and would lead to a competitive devaluation war in Europe. Give up euro is plain nonsense.
Are you so obtuse no to see that euro is the factor of debt increase and not the reverse. The devaluation for France would be reasonable. Euro was a catastrophic mistake. Plurinational currencies have never worked, in history. EU is also a big mistake. Why has EU never been a model for other parts of the World?

Exiting the euro, the EU and NATO is the only way out. Greece will get out, it's certain. Germany too, very likely. All France can do is anticipating.


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And don't act like if you were in the majority about this subject because you're in the minority.
Could you remind me what the French and the Dutch voted for, in 2005? And the Irish in 2008?

Economists are on my side.
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Originally Posted by ssin
OK, thanks. I was in Brussels 2 weeks ago, btw. Went to Delirium club mostly, drinking Belgian beer, what else, like any other visitor, total cliche, but it was enjoyable and successful visit Shame I don't speak French at all.
Which is your favourite? I love Kasteel Red.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Are you seriously comparing Nazi occupation to so-called "EU occupation"? I thought you were one of the more sane people on here.
Yes. If it doesn't sound too insane to you, I see supranationality in both cases, which IS a comparable aspect. There has always been Empires, throughout the European history. Hitler already referred to the "Historical year of the great grouping of Europe" (in 1941) You had that year a great exhibition in Paris called "La France européenne" (with the phrase 'Construction de l'Europe' - Europe Building, written on the folder) with the Nazi authorities and Vichy representatives. In this exhibition you had maps showing the broken up Europe of the past democracies and the new united Nazi Europe without borders, where we could have a big common market, etc.

History is only repeating itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
CdG's fight for nuclear independence and rejection of NATO was purely a matter of national pride. From an economic and defensive standpoint it made little sense. The US drove Germans out of France and funded much of France's post war infrastructure. From a moral standpoint it made even less sense.
You realize that the nuclear independence that General de Gaulle gave France allowed for Villepin's speech at the UN and allowed France to stay out of the Iraqi disaster. Sarkozy would've sent troop to Iraq.

If we are to talk about WWII, then we've got to say everything. For example, that Roosevelt never wished to recognize De Gaulle and would rather negotiate with Darlan who had just refuelled the Afrikakorps and allowed the Luftwaffe to use airports in Syria. Roosevelt had great plans for Europe. He wanted to break my country up and instal a proconsular government in every occupied countries. De Gaulle prevented that.

But most of all, American oil and car industries were in bed with Hitler. It's, for example, now admitted that had Standard Oil not transferred hydrogenation patents and technology to IG Farben there would have been no war.

I think we have no moral debt towards the US. Also culturally, we paid the "debt" by diffusing American films in cinema 3 weeks a month (Blum-Byrnes Agreement).
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:01 AM   #56
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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Yes. If it doesn't sound too insane to you, I see supranationality in both cases, which IS a comparable aspect. There has always been Empires, throughout the European history. Hitler already referred to the "Historical year of the great grouping of Europe" (in 1941) You had that year a great exhibition in Paris called "La France européenne" (with the phrase 'Construction de l'Europe' - Europe Building, written on the folder) with the Nazi authorities and Vichy representatives. In this exhibition you had maps showing the broken up Europe of the past democracies and the new united Nazi Europe without borders, where we could have a big common market, etc.

History is only repeating itself.
You remind me of certain nostalgic Germans who think Hitler's ideas were good in theory. I'm not even a fan of the EU; I think it's undemocratic, bureaucratic, inefficient and corrupt. But comparing it to a dictatorial regime brought on by force, ruled by terror, plagued with racism and human rights violations... It's not even worth a rational argument.


Quote:
You realize that the nuclear independence that General de Gaulle gave France allowed for Villepin's speech at the UN and allowed France to stay out of the Iraqi disaster. Sarkozy would've sent troop to Iraq.

If we are to talk about WWII, then we've got to say everything. For example, that Roosevelt never wished to recognize De Gaulle and would rather negotiate with Darlan who had just refuelled the Afrikakorps and allowed the Luftwaffe to use airports in Syria. Roosevelt had great plans for Europe. He wanted to break my country up and instal a proconsular government in every occupied countries. De Gaulle prevented that.

But most of all, American oil and car industries were in bed with Hitler. It's, for example, now admitted that had Standard Oil not transferred hydrogenation patents and technology to IG Farben there would have been no war.

I think we have no moral debt towards the US. Also culturally, we paid the "debt" by diffusing American films in cinema 3 weeks a month (Blum-Byrnes Agreement).
You're so obsessed with France staying out of Iraq that you're ignoring the real benefits of nuclear independence. Western Europe has been at peace for the longest time in history thanks to deterrence. Now instead of fighting over petty arguments the continent has come together in economic union. Staying out of NATO conflicts in the middle-east is minor in comparison.

Roosevelt was not America. He was the most power hungry president the US had ever seen who wanted dictatorial control over his own country and possibly the entire world. The real American citizens risked their lives to support their European allies and then came home to pay heavy taxes to reconstruct Europe. Of course CdG and France were too proud to notice.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:05 AM   #57
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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Which is your favourite? I love Kasteel Red.
I don't have a favorite Belgian beer yet, everything I tasted was great, my friends suggested Rochefort so I drank that, I tried also Delirium Tremens because I liked the name, and a few of others but I forgot the names there were dozens of them, difficult to choose, I would need a couple of moths to determine the winner


the topic: Roosevelt was a populist because of the difficult times and the global economic crisis, the same one that put Hitler in power. And the Americans wanted some figure that can rule and unite the nation that was disoriented during the economic turmoil lasted for more than a decade.

Truth to be told, without WW2 the US would not have the fantastic economic recovery they had. No nation in history had such spectacular economic growth as the US during the WW2. After the war the US was both economically recovered and a political giant. The US did help Europe to rebuild, but also placed a foot on it that will not disappear any time soon. There is no free lunch. And it's good because people in Europe showed many times that they cannot agree and then they start some shit. The Europeans themselves got exactly what they asked for, and it's up to them to see what they really want in the future.
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:46 PM   #58
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

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You remind me of certain nostalgic Germans who think Hitler's ideas were good in theory. I'm not even a fan of the EU; I think it's undemocratic, bureaucratic, inefficient and corrupt. But comparing it to a dictatorial regime brought on by force, ruled by terror, plagued with racism and human rights violations... It's not even worth a rational argument.
This first sentence is outrageous. I can't even believe you said that!

All I was referring to is that the French (like every nation state of EU) have to fight for their independence against an external "federator" whose right has pre-eminence and which is as you say undemocratic.

EU is what I call an empire. I can compare it to the IIIrd Reich because it was also an empire. The French also have their share of Empire building (Buonaparte, colonization, Charles the Great, etc.). USSR also was an Empire. Rome was an empire. And so forth and so on.

All these empires have differences, doesn't change the fact that they were empires. I'll always side the nations against empires. So saying that I'm a Nazi while my reasoning just shows otherwise is really outrageous. Sad to read.

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You're so obsessed with France staying out of Iraq that you're ignoring the real benefits of nuclear independence. Western Europe has been at peace for the longest time in history thanks to deterrence.
I'm not ignoring that. And this is however nice to read because it shows how wrong Euro-federalists are when they claim EEC/UE was the main factor of peace in Europe, while WWII ended in 1945 and EEC was created in 1957. M.A.D. is the reason for peace in Europe.


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Roosevelt was not America. He was the most power hungry president the US had ever seen who wanted dictatorial control over his own country and possibly the entire world.
He could not control Wall Street, though. Even after Pearl Harbour, the likes of Sloan and Ford were still in bed with the Nazis.


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The real American citizens risked their lives to support their European allies and then came home to pay heavy taxes to reconstruct Europe. Of course CdG and France were too proud to notice.
Myth building.

European countries had already been rebuilt by 1948. Economic growth started much earlier. Milton Friedman argued that the Marshall Plan did not help boosting Europe's economic growth but on the contrary slowed it down.

And De Gaulle's duty (like every statesman) was to serve France's and the French's interests, not American citizens' interests. And overall he did it quite well.
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:53 AM   #59
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

First you say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
This first sentence is outrageous. I can't even believe you said that!
Then this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
EU is what I call an empire. I can compare it to the IIIrd Reich because it was also an empire.
You're digging your own hole, mate.


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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
All these empires have differences, doesn't change the fact that they were empires. I'll always side the nations against empires. So saying that I'm a Nazi while my reasoning just shows otherwise is really outrageous. Sad to read.
Comparing EU to the 3rd Reich is the only thing that's outrageous here.


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He could not control Wall Street, though. Even after Pearl Harbour, the likes of Sloan and Ford were still in bed with the Nazis.
Right, Sloan and Ford sleeping with Hitler. You're gay porno image is interesting but if you can't stick to facts then you're just another member of the crazy MTF mob. Show me evidence that this was the case and then you can make lazy bullshit political statements like this.

Roosevelt would have certainly loved to control Wall Street, like everything else. The fact he didn't succeed is the greatest blessing.


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Myth building.

European countries had already been rebuilt by 1948. Economic growth started much earlier. Milton Friedman argued that the Marshall Plan did not help boosting Europe's economic growth but on the contrary slowed it down.
Building myths of your own.

European countries weren't rebuilt until 1960. 1948-1960 France and Italy's economies doubled; Germany's tripled.


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And De Gaulle's duty (like every statesman) was to serve France's and the French's interests, not American citizens' interests.
When did I say it wasn't? How does snubbing your allies serve your country?
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: French Presidential Elections 2012

You called me a Nazi (without any argument, by the way) and don't even seem to regret it.


Then the discussion is over. There's nothing to say after that ! It's called Godwin's Law.
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