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Old 02-06-2012, 05:53 PM   #61
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Default Re: Drugs

I believe weed should be legal, it does less damage to your health than alcohol yet remains regarded as more dangerous for young people.
And I don't whether all those mental effects such as memory/concentration loss are confirmed by any research, it's rather a part of anti-weed propaganda.
If you want to save your own children from getting dumb or addicted, keep them away from alcohol at the firs place.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:03 PM   #62
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Default Re: Drugs

Might as well have em all be legal. As long as they stick to damaging their own health, drug takers might as well have some fun with their highs.

Doing drugs in privacy without affecting the rest of society is fine with me. This includes ordinary fag smoking. Unfortunately people are still allowed to smoke fags in public. This must change. It's more of a problem than the banned drugs IMO.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:23 PM   #63
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Default Re: Drugs

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Originally Posted by Sham Kay View Post
Might as well have em all be legal. As long as they stick to damaging their own health, drug takers might as well have some fun with their highs.

Doing drugs in privacy without affecting the rest of society is fine with me. This includes ordinary fag smoking. Unfortunately people are still allowed to smoke fags in public. This must change. It's more of a problem than the banned drugs IMO.
Let's take an example of a legal drug: alcohol. Who cleans up after people following one too many drinks? Hospitals and the police. Alcohol costs NHS Ł3bn a year (money that could cover 170 000 kidney transplants) and is the cause of over one million visits to hospitals in the UK (source). It's all fine saying that as long as they keep the damage to themseleves but that's based on the presumption that everyone is moderate and sensible, which facts prove isn't the case.

I'm not saying illegalise everything but I'd wish people would think about the consequences on a large scale before being so black and white about their opinions. I think most countries have their hands full with people going awry with alcohol and tobacco already; legalising cocaine, heroin would only serve to increase its users and inevitable addicts - thus serving to be another potential headache for health services etc.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:29 PM   #64
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Default Re: Drugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
Unfortunately, this is what history tells.
Banning drugs has NEVER ever stopped anyone using them. It's "Human Nature".
The point isn't who will be stopped by illegality, because of course it would be unrealistic to hope that all drug use could be stopped, it's who will be drawn into taking drugs for the first time by legality and the subsequent commercialisation of drugs.

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Originally Posted by fast_clay View Post
i lived in the uk for a while once upon a time... if junkies are regularly targeting your house, then time to move down to the road... about a kilometre made the difference... from boscombe to southbourne... no dramas there...
You misinterpreted my point, I don't regularly get targeted by junkies. My point was that by legalising drugs you'd take away their main source of income and so they'd most likely turn to other types of crime (like robbery).

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Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
People can't be trusted to take care of themselves. Legalize drugs and they will of course get easier to obtain, which I think will eventually lead to more people becoming addicted and more lives ruined. I for one don't share this "if people want to destroy themselves, then let them"-attitude. (Besides, if a person becomes an addict, there is seldom only 1 person who suffers.)
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Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
People aren't smart/mature enough, especially not when there's peer pressure involved.
I completely agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
Isn't that a bit 'patronizing' to say, at the least?
Many folks use drugs (alcohol, cigarettes, pot, whatever), for incidental recreational use, without getting into any kind of trouble at all.
But the argument isn't about people who don't get in trouble. You don't have a solution for the people who do have problems - all you're saying is let them rue their mistakes...but that wont stop them from being a problem to society.

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
I used to think this way. But I've seen too much that leaves me shaking my head. It gives me no joy to say it, but education doesn't work.

You know how many young people end up drugged out of their minds or dead?? Did they ALL have bad parents who didn't talk to them about the dangers? Come on. I've seen it happen to people who had great parents.

As I'm typing this, someone in a first-world country is heading out to the club in hopes of getting lucky with a stranger. And they aren't bringing any condoms with them. Now unless you've been living under a rock for 25 years, you know about AIDS (not to mention unwanted pregnancy). They know; they just choose to disregard.

People have unprecedented amounts of information at their fingertips, yet they are now even eating themselves into obesity, disease and death (with legal and healthy substances... like food!).

George Burns smoked for 80 years and lived to be 100. Steven Tyler snorted half of Colombia in the 70s and 80s and he lived.
It won't happen to me. It won't happen to me.


There is no education against this attitude.
I wish I could've said it as well as you
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #65
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Default Re: Drugs

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Originally Posted by JolánGagó View Post
I take it you aren't among those... so you decide for the less lucky others.
Wrong. I actually count myself as one of those incapable of making the right decisions all the time. Also, I find your obsession with my posts cute. Might wanna relax a bit though, bitterness will hardly make your life better.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:29 PM   #66
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Default Re: Drugs

You can avoid all the lung cancer issues by taking THC in other ways. Like eating it in cookies/cakes or even drinks.
And the casual joint smoking is not going to be enough to harm your lungs anyway.

Impotence and memory issues, yes you are right.

I just dont really consider those to be up there.

I mean in terms of like Alcohol can actually kill you, give you liver disease, its a poison. Thats what I consider harmfull.

Impotence and memory issues/laziness for sure are negative things. And people need to be aware of it.

But I wouldnt call that harmfull.

Cancer and Liver cirrosis is what id call harmfull, but thats just me.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:10 PM   #67
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Default Re: Drugs

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Originally Posted by 2003 View Post
You can avoid all the lung cancer issues by taking THC in other ways. Like eating it in cookies/cakes or even drinks.
And the casual joint smoking is not going to be enough to harm your lungs anyway.

Impotence and memory issues, yes you are right.

I just dont really consider those to be up there.

I mean in terms of like Alcohol can actually kill you, give you liver disease, its a poison. Thats what I consider harmfull.

Impotence and memory issues/laziness for sure are negative things. And people need to be aware of it.

But I wouldnt call that harmfull.

Cancer and Liver cirrosis is what id call harmfull, but thats just me.
Like I have said before, I am all for cannabis legalization, and I do agree that the way alcohol is being used, it ends up being far more harmful.

I just made that list to alert you that the whole "cannabis is not harmful at all" thing is a myth.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:49 AM   #68
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Default Re: Drugs

By show of hands, who here in this thread is going to start using Heroin if it becomes legal? Anyone? Didn't think so. Just because something is legalized doesn't mean there's going to be a sudden surge and increase of drug use in question -- most people are sensible and reasonable and don't need to be told what to, and not to do. Where is personal responsibility? If people are too dumb, immature, and irrational to be told what personal recreation they can do why stop there? Why not tell them what they can watch, how they're allowed to spend their money, how they're allowed to spend their time, for christ's sake?

By the way, those on the other side, don't be pretentious enough to ask someone for evidence when you have provided zero yourself in regards to what quantity of people, if any, are prevented from drug use via drug laws. All we know for sure is that we have created a massive, billion dollar black market industry and lost billions in prison-care and police enforcement that could be spent on A) education or B) quelling the massive state/national debt that we are burying ourselves under.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:01 AM   #69
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Default Re: Drugs

Appreciated

Theres very few things on earth that are totally harmless in certain contexts.

I will say though, most parents these days would rather their kids relaxed somewhere and smoked pot than did alcohol and all its baggage it comes with.

That really says something doesnt it.

In saying that though, once you have kids a lot changes. I mean its hard to imagine being the best parent if your blazed out of your mind all the time.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:13 AM   #70
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Default Re: Drugs

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Originally Posted by Macbrother View Post
By show of hands, who here in this thread is going to start using Heroin if it becomes legal? Anyone? Didn't think so. Just because something is legalized doesn't mean there's going to be a sudden surge and increase of drug use in question -- most people are sensible and reasonable and don't need to be told what to, and not to do. Where is personal responsibility? If people are too dumb, immature, and irrational to be told what personal recreation they can do why stop there? Why not tell them what they can watch, how they're allowed to spend their money, how they're allowed to spend their time, for christ's sake?

By the way, those on the other side, don't be pretentious enough to ask someone for evidence when you have provided zero yourself in regards to what quantity of people, if any, are prevented from drug use via drug laws. All we know for sure is that we have created a massive, billion dollar black market industry and lost billions in prison-care and police enforcement that could be spent on A) education or B) quelling the massive state/national debt that we are burying ourselves under.
I highly doubt that the kind of people who would start using heroin if it is legalised are also the kind who would be discussing whether or not drugs should be legalised in an Internet forum.

Also, surely there is a stark difference between drug usage/abuse and what movie to watch on a Saturday night.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:35 AM   #71
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Default Re: Drugs

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
I highly doubt that the kind of people who would start using heroin if it is legalised are also the kind who would be discussing whether or not drugs should be legalised in an Internet forum.

Also, surely there is a stark difference between drug usage/abuse and what movie to watch on a Saturday night.
So we're smarter, better, and more capable of rational decision than the populace? You have a mighty high opinion of MTF posters, then. To your latter point -- it's a slippery slope, when you take away one freedom, it becomes much easier to take away others. What if someone goes out, watches a movie, then commits violence. Should the movie be banned? Should controls be put in about who goes sees what, when, where? It's been discussed before.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:11 AM   #72
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So we're smarter, better, and more capable of rational decision than the populace? You have a mighty high opinion of MTF posters, then. To your latter point -- it's a slippery slope, when you take away one freedom, it becomes much easier to take away others. What if someone goes out, watches a movie, then commits violence. Should the movie be banned? Should controls be put in about who goes sees what, when, where? It's been discussed before.
I couldn't disagree more with your latter point. In the first place, is the "freedom" to abuse drugs really one worth protecting? In the second place, equating drug abuse to the possible but not definite effects of a violent movie on an individual is stretching the argument a bit too far. Heroin has detrimental effects on any individual who uses it; a violent movie, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause just any viewer to go out and commit violence. The inherent harm in the two activities is surely obvious.

I am absolutely banned by my government from abusing drugs, including marijuana, but I'm pretty much free to watch whatever movie I desire. I find my country overly draconian when it comes to the many limits that it places on individual liberty; but I am extremely thankful to live in a relatively drugs-free country. And I wouldn't trade this security and freedom from fear for any championing of some ill-defined "freedom" of the individual (a stupid one, really) to abuse drugs.

But of course, I'm only speaking from my own experience. I realise that Singapore's probably easier to regulate because we're such a small country and the US has its own hosts of problems. I just think there's something morally repugnant about the idea of legalising drugs in general, and I have experienced first-hand how tight controls can be beneficial to a society. I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:32 AM   #73
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Default Re: Drugs

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Let's take an example of a legal drug: alcohol. Who cleans up after people following one too many drinks? Hospitals and the police. Alcohol costs NHS Ł3bn a year (money that could cover 170 000 kidney transplants) and is the cause of over one million visits to hospitals in the UK (source). It's all fine saying that as long as they keep the damage to themseleves but that's based on the presumption that everyone is moderate and sensible, which facts prove isn't the case.

I'm not saying illegalise everything but I'd wish people would think about the consequences on a large scale before being so black and white about their opinions. I think most countries have their hands full with people going awry with alcohol and tobacco already; legalising cocaine, heroin would only serve to increase its users and inevitable addicts - thus serving to be another potential headache for health services etc.
Interesting Telegraph article.

This is more of a problem related to how the NHS works than alcohol itself. When you have a free service, people take advantage. They have a license to risk their own health and not worry about the consequences. According to the article, British teenagers are the 3rd worst binge drinkers in Europe behind Denmark and Isle of Man. Coincidentally those two countries also have government healthcare.

Ł3bn is less than 3% of the NHS total budget. Considering 50% of the population drink regularly, if anything, it's surprisingly low. I'd love to know how much smoking costs the NHS.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:53 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
People can't be trusted to take care of themselves. Legalize drugs and they will of course get easier to obtain, which I think will eventually lead to more people becoming addicted and more lives ruined. I for one don't share this "if people want to destroy themselves, then let them"-attitude. (Besides, if a person becomes an addict, there is seldom only 1 person who suffers.)
Most ridiculous comment in this entire thread.

Typical liberal logic. Governments implicitly have the power to force people to be responsible. If this was the case then why do 30% of teenagers take substances they're suppose to have no access to.

Governments are people too. What makes them so much more responsible than the rest of us?


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Doing drugs in privacy without affecting the rest of society is fine with me. This includes ordinary fag smoking. Unfortunately people are still allowed to smoke fags in public. This must change. It's more of a problem than the banned drugs IMO.
Totally agree. This is also far more feasible. The idea of controlling certain designated areas vs trying to police every square inch of the country.


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But the argument isn't about people who don't get in trouble. You don't have a solution for the people who do have problems - all you're saying is let them rue their mistakes...but that wont stop them from being a problem to society.
They'll always be a problem to society. Better to address the grass roots of these problems (their upbringing and education) than the consequences (drugs).


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By show of hands, who here in this thread is going to start using Heroin if it becomes legal? Anyone? Didn't think so. Just because something is legalized doesn't mean there's going to be a sudden surge and increase of drug use in question -- most people are sensible and reasonable and don't need to be told what to, and not to do. Where is personal responsibility? If people are too dumb, immature, and irrational to be told what personal recreation they can do why stop there? Why not tell them what they can watch, how they're allowed to spend their money, how they're allowed to spend their time, for christ's sake?
Absolutely spot on.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:55 AM   #75
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I couldn't disagree more with your latter point. In the first place, is the "freedom" to abuse drugs really one worth protecting?
One should never have to justify a personal freedom. So long as it is not infringing upon the right of another it should be inherent. If you wish, you're free to attempt to justify why it should be removed.
Quote:
In the second place, equating drug abuse to the possible but not definite effects of a violent movie on an individual is stretching the argument a bit too far. Heroin has detrimental effects on any individual who uses it; a violent movie, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause just any viewer to go out and commit violence. The inherent harm in the two activities is surely obvious.
The point is (obviously) not which does more harm. Even furthermore we are not strictly talking about heroin but recreational drugs in general. Why don't you compare it to the inherent harm in consuming THC once a week? The point is, even as the US national deficit is well over $1 trillion, and states are having to borrow money to pay for things like teachers and fire departments and law enforcement, we are spending over $50 billion a year and that's on law enforcement alone, not counting prison costs and upkeep. And what have we accomplished with such a policy? We've created a an underworld where gangs, thugs, and mafia thrive, and get rich off the sale drugs. Anyone who wants it can still get it whenever they want, either with money, or violence. It's counter-productive and quite frankly a waste of taxpayer money.
Quote:
But of course, I'm only speaking from my own experience. I realise that Singapore's probably easier to regulate because we're such a small country and the US has its own hosts of problems. I just think there's something morally repugnant about the idea of legalising drugs in general, and I have experienced first-hand how tight controls can be beneficial to a society. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Listen, I'm not encouraging drug use and I don't use them myself except for alcohol -- I just don't want my government holding my hand, telling me what I can and can't do, and adding to the national and state debt in the process in futile, abortive, self-righteous attempts to stop it. I find that much more morally repugnant.
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