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View Poll Results: Who's more talented?

Lleyton Hewitt 30 47.62%
Jim Courier 26 41.27%
meh... 7 11.11%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-26-2011, 03:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
I wouldnt say Couriers game was that suited for slower surfaces. Itīs easy to say that because of the two RGīs titles, but he definitely wasnīt like the clay court grinders of that era. He hit relatively flat, and he was much more succesful on hard courts. Excluding the two RG-titles, he only won three other titles on clay.



You have to remember that Courier made it to the WImbledon final in an era where he had to play against serve/volley-players like Sampras, Becker, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Edberg etc, when they were at their prime, and grass was actually fast. Thatīs quite an accomplishment. Hewitt as a counterpuncher enjoyed playing in an era where the best serve/vollyers were already retiring and grass was getting slower. If prime Courier and prime Hewitt played against each other on fast hc or grass, iīd give Courier the edge, because he was the more active one of the two.
Yes, Courier wasn't as suited to slower surfaces as some other players, but he certainly wasn't an Agassi that benefited well from playing on the faster surfaces. Hewitt was clearly much more successful on the fastest surfaces in the world while struggled on clay/slow hardcourts.

Well let's take a look at who Courier lost to at Wimbledon..

1989 - 1st round Seguso
1990 - 3rd round Woodforde
1991 - QF Stich
1992 - 3rd round Olhovskiy
1993 - Final Sampras
1994 - 2nd round Forget
1995 - 2nd round Pioline
1996 - 1st round Stark
1997 - 1st round Gimelstob
1998 - 1st round Johansson
1999 - 4th round Henman

Really the only notable one was 1993 as Courier did beat Edberg along the way (and Martin if that counts). Aside from that, Stich was the only truly notable loss (Forget/Pioline/Henman were clearly not slam class). But yes, aside from the Edberg win, Courier had taken no other notable scalps as far as I can remember.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Yes, Courier wasn't as suited to slower surfaces as some other players, but he certainly wasn't an Agassi that benefited well from playing on the faster surfaces. Hewitt was clearly much more successful on the fastest surfaces in the world while struggled on clay/slow hardcourts.

Well let's take a look at who Courier lost to at Wimbledon..

1989 - 1st round Seguso
1990 - 3rd round Woodforde
1991 - QF Stich
1992 - 3rd round Olhovskiy
1993 - Final Sampras
1994 - 2nd round Forget
1995 - 2nd round Pioline
1996 - 1st round Stark
1997 - 1st round Gimelstob
1998 - 1st round Johansson
1999 - 4th round Henman

Really the only notable one was 1993 as Courier did beat Edberg along the way (and Martin if that counts). Aside from that, Stich was the only truly notable loss (Forget/Pioline/Henman were clearly not slam class). But yes, aside from the Edberg win, Courier had taken no other notable scalps as far as I can remember.
Certainly losing to Gimelstob is embarassing on any surface, at any time. But you have to remember that COurierīs career at the top was really short, it was pretty much from 1991-95, on any surface. His downhill was really quick. So if we look at that period, only the loss to Olhovskiy seems like a bad one, Stich, Sampras, Forget and Pioline were all excellent players.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
Certainly losing to Gimelstob is embarassing on any surface, at any time. But you have to remember that COurierīs career at the top was really short, it was pretty much from 1991-95, on any surface. His downhill was really quick. So if we look at that period, only the loss to Olhovskiy seems like a bad one, Stich, Sampras, Forget and Pioline were all excellent players.
Stich and Sampras I acknowledge, but Forget was a Grand Slam mug honestly, and while Pioline was certainly a great and talented player, nothing to gawk at either. Hewitt in general had the better record and lost to more notable players IMO (Djokovic two times, Federer three times, Baghdatis one time, Soderling one time, Roddick one time).
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Courier's record at Wimbledon is still notably worse than Hewitt's even if you don't give Lleyton's win as much value. Courier made like one 4th round (which was his last Wimbledon), a QF and a final while Hewitt had four 4th rounds, three QFs, one SF and obviously the win. Lleyton also had the better record in New York as well by quite a stretch.

As Cliched it may sound but fact remains Courier was playing in quite a strong Era While Hewitt was in a Transitional Era.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
As Cliched it may sound but fact remains Courier was playing in quite a strong Era While Hewitt was in a Transitional Era.
Hewitt won during a transitional era, but I'm not pulling his losses during this period, rather after 2003.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Yes, Courier wasn't as suited to slower surfaces as some other players, but he certainly wasn't an Agassi that benefited well from playing on the faster surfaces. Hewitt was clearly much more successful on the fastest surfaces in the world while struggled on clay/slow hardcourts.

Well let's take a look at who Courier lost to at Wimbledon..

1989 - 1st round Seguso
1990 - 3rd round Woodforde
1991 - QF Stich
1992 - 3rd round Olhovskiy
1993 - Final Sampras
1994 - 2nd round Forget
1995 - 2nd round Pioline
1996 - 1st round Stark
1997 - 1st round Gimelstob
1998 - 1st round Johansson
1999 - 4th round Henman

Really the only notable one was 1993 as Courier did beat Edberg along the way (and Martin if that counts). Aside from that, Stich was the only truly notable loss (Forget/Pioline/Henman were clearly not slam class). But yes, aside from the Edberg win, Courier had taken no other notable scalps as far as I can remember.
You have to count 91-93 as that was the time When Courier truly was at his peak.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
You have to count 91-93 as that was the time When Courier truly was at his peak.
Right, and then we have to compensate that grass is slower now, etc, etc, etc. It is somehow going to fall in favor of Courier, but either way, Hewitt was truly solid at Wimbledon and grass in general. Hewitt even has a win over Sampras at Queens, though obviously those in favor of Courier will point of Sampras was out of his peak, but even as though as that may be the case, peak Courier which we can agree is 91-93, had only 2 wins out of 9 matches against Sampras in those 3 years.
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Last edited by HKz : 12-26-2011 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Right, and then we have to compensate that grass is slower now, etc, etc, etc. It is somehow going to fall in favor of Courier, but either way, Hewitt was truly solid at Wimbledon and grass in general. Hewitt even has a win over Sampras at Queens, though obviously those in favor of Courier will point of Sampras was out of his peak, but even as though as that may be the case, peak Courier which we can agree is 91-93, had only 2 wins out of 9 matches against Sampras in those 3 years.
I donīt see how comparison to Sampras is relevant when weīre talking about Courier and Hewitt. Yes, Courier had a losing record against Pete, but Sampras is one of the best players ever on grass and hc, and he was in his absolute prime in the 90s. And as you said, he was past his peak when Hewitt emerged. A prime Sampras would have kicked Lleytonīs ass if they had played on fast grass.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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I donīt see how comparison to Sampras is relevant when weīre talking about Courier and Hewitt. Yes, Courier had a losing record against Pete, but Sampras is one of the best players ever on grass and hc, and he was in his absolute prime in the 90s. And as you said, he was past his peak when Hewitt emerged. A prime Sampras would have kicked Lleytonīs ass if they had played on fast grass.
You don't see why we are comparing their success against Sampras? Obviously because he was the best in the 90s on the faster surfaces. Only true way to really link the two players in terms of success as that is the only common element. Even then it is still extremely subjective, but it is much less subjective than trying to point out the field of players, surface speeds, etc.

Courier had his chances in 1991-1993 as he was in his prime while Sampras was still clearly not in his prime, so you can make the case either way. Both Hewitt and Courier faced a non-prime Sampras in their times and both managed to win 1 US Open around the same time with Sampras entering his prime in 1993 and leaving his prime in 2000.
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Right, and then we have to compensate that grass is slower now, etc, etc, etc. It is somehow going to fall in favor of Courier, but either way, Hewitt was truly solid at Wimbledon and grass in general. Hewitt even has a win over Sampras at Queens, though obviously those in favor of Courier will point of Sampras was out of his peak, but even as though as that may be the case, peak Courier which we can agree is 91-93, had only 2 wins out of 9 matches against Sampras in those 3 years.
Its a hypothesis but still consider this

If Federer would have peaked in 2001 than 2003 what would have Hewitt been left with?

On the other hand Courier would have nicked the RGs and the odd AO as well if Sampras peaked in 91.
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
You don't see why we are comparing their success against Sampras? Obviously because he was the best in the 90s on the faster surfaces. Only true way to really link the two players in terms of success as that is the only common element. Even then it is still extremely subjective, but it is much less subjective than trying to point out the field of players, surface speeds, etc.

Courier had his chances in 1991-1993 as he was in his prime while Sampras was still clearly not in his prime, so you can make the case either way. Both Hewitt and Courier faced a non-prime Sampras in their times and both managed to win 1 US Open around the same time with Sampras entering his prime in 1993 and leaving his prime in 2000.
By 1993 Sampras had already 3 GS titles and 1 final, as well as 1 year end championship and 1 Grand Slam Cup. So he was clearly at the beginning of his prime, and certainly more competitive and hungry than he was in 2000, when Hewitt started beating him.

Also, the Sampras-factor clearly favors Hewitt, because Sampras was the worst possible mactch-up for COurier. It was Sampras who originally exposed Courierīs game, exposing his backhand by first attacking his forehand-side. Sampras was the first to figure it out, and thatīs pretty much where Courierīs downhill started.
Hewitt, on the other hand, was more than happy to keep passing Sampras, who was getting older and slower by the beginning of the 2000īs.
So itīs not really fair to compare Courier and Hewitt by comparing their results against Sampras.

By the way, Courier never won the US Open.
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Its a hypothesis but still consider this

If Federer would have peaked in 2001 than 2003 what would have Hewitt been left with?

On the other hand Courier would have nicked the RGs and the odd AO as well if Sampras peaked in 91.
Uh, your point? RG and AO is not in question bro. I said Courier would beat Hewitt at RG and AO pretty easily. Wimbledon and US Open are in question here.

Quote:
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By 1993 Sampras had already 3 GS titles and 1 final, as well as 1 year end championship and 1 Grand Slam Cup. So he was clearly at the beginning of his prime, and certainly more competitive and hungry than he was in 2000, when Hewitt started beating him.

Also, the Sampras-factor clearly favors Hewitt, because Sampras was the worst possible mactch-up for COurier. It was Sampras who originally exposed Courierīs game, exposing his backhand by first attacking his forehand-side. Sampras was the first to figure it out, and thatīs pretty much where Courierīs downhill started.
Hewitt, on the other hand, was more than happy to keep passing Sampras, who was getting older and slower by the beginning of the 2000īs.
So itīs not really fair to compare Courier and Hewitt by comparing their results against Sampras.

By the way, Courier never won the US Open.
By 1993, Sampras only had one slam. It was only until 1993 that he won Wimbledon and US Open for the second time.

I never said Courier won the US Open, it was a slightly mid-wording on my part, I meant Sampras won US Open during both stretches after a short drought period (1991 and 2002) while facing Courier and Hewitt respectively.

But your posts have shown how subjective, like most of tennis analysis, this has become. You can argue Sampras was so much better 1991-1993 despite not being in his true prime, but one could argue similarly 2000-2002. Yes, he wasn't the same physically, but he certainly had the years of experience and mental game to still be at the top. It is a total trade off. Bringing in specific match-ups is exactly what I didn't want pointed out.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:04 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

Here's my breakdown

Fast Grass: Hewitt>>>Courier
Slow Grass: Hewitt>>Courier
Indoor Carpet: Hewitt>Courier
Indoor Hard: Courier>Hewitt
Outdoor Slow Hard: Courier>>>Hewitt
Outdoor Medium Hard: Courier>>Hewitt
Outdoor Fast Hard: Courier>Hewitt
Outdoor Slow Clay: Courier>>>>>>Hewitt
Outdoor Medium Clay: Courier>>>>>>Hewitt
Outdoor Fast Clay: Courier>>>>>Hewitt
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:01 AM   #29
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Hewitt
Naah,Courier.
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: Who's more talented? Hewitt vs. Courier

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Courier is way way more talented than Hewitt.

Had a massive Forehand which was well discussed in the forum. Had a Solid Backhand. Great First serve. And a really Strong Strong game.

Hewitt on the other hand feeds on the strength of the ball from the opponents. Has a feeble game really as compared to Courier
and the Results show. 2 more Grand Slams for Courier.
Yep.I agree.
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