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View Poll Results: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the Austra

Yes – bigotry is simply unacceptable 37 41.57%
No – Court has the freedom of expression 52 58.43%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:46 PM   #181
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
I don't think that's what's going on here - I think that in a some cases it's quite simply, as a western white male, to really understand or empathise with being discriminated against or treated a second class citizen, and many people unfortunately do not even attempt it. Minds closed in unimaginative complacency.
Scoobs, he is constantly getting in digs like "lame gay activism" and "p.c.-bigot liberals" when describing gay people who want equality. It's disgusting. It wasn't so long ago that we gays used to be put to death for existing; in fact, we are still put to death in several countries throughout the world. Sophocles seems to be saying that people who fight for gay rights are just annoying and bigoted. In many countries of the world, these activists are fighting for the right to live. Apparently that's annoying, to want the right to live without being harassed, jailed or killed.

And, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Sophocles claims to be a Christian.
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:15 PM   #182
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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So, you find minorities of all kinds, whether black, Jewish, Muslim, or gay, to be intensely irritating when they fight for equality? I suppose you're the kind of person who would have found the slaves irritating when they pressed for freedom?
I live in 21st-Century Britain & I am talking in that context - i.e., a context in which homosexual acts between consenting adults have been legal for about 50 years. Most people accept this state of affairs but there are many people - again, I am not among them, I don't give a toss what people do in their bedrooms - who continue to disapprove of homosexuality & I think it's ridiculous & unfair to exhort or bully them to "celebrate" it, & I also think you can oppose gay marriage without having anything against gays, although I can imagine your incredulity at such an idea.
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:17 PM   #183
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Scoobs, he is constantly getting in digs like "lame gay activism" and "p.c.-bigot liberals" when describing gay people who want equality. It's disgusting. It wasn't so long ago that we gays used to be put to death for existing; in fact, we are still put to death in several countries throughout the world. Sophocles seems to be saying that people who fight for gay rights are just annoying and bigoted. In many countries of the world, these activists are fighting for the right to live. Apparently that's annoying, to want the right to live without being harassed, jailed or killed.

And, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Sophocles claims to be a Christian.
Er, no, I don't. I'm an atheist.

For the rest, please see my post above. Of course I don't find it annoying when people are protesting against being prosecuted or worse for engaging in sexual activity with consenting adults. This is a rather different matter from a crusade against affording any kind of honour to anybody who disapproves of homosexuality.

Please tell me you can see that.
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:41 PM   #184
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Possibly.

But I suspect I simply haven't made myself clear.

If we were talking about renaming the Margaret Court Dance-floor at G.A.Y. Night Club I should be the first to agree that renaming was a good idea. If we were talking about renaming the Margaret Court Chamber of the Australian Parliament I'd have no strong objection, beyond wondering why on earth it was named after a tennis player in the first place. But as we're talking about renaming one of the biggest tennis arenas in Australia, which is named after one of Australia's greatest tennis players, I find the argument for renaming it disturbing, for the following reasons.

1. The renamers are taking it for granted that Court is wrong.

Do I have to explain that this isn't really the way political debate works in a free society?

2. The renamers are taking it for granted that being wrong on this particular issue is morally wicked.

Guys, this is what the religious people are supposed to do. You know, the people you are against? Just because somebody has political views you find repugnant, does not make them morally inferior to you. Debate starts from neutral, not from, "I'm right & anybody who disagrees is evil."

3. The renamers are taking it for granted that institutions that have nothing to do with politics have a duty to promote, or at any rate express solidarity with, (the renamers' particular) political views.

This is totalitarian in tendency. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, politics is a small & mostly unimportant part of life, having far less effect than politicians imagine & occupying only a tiny part of most people's consciousnesses - and this is how it should be. One of the most noticeable features of a tyranny is how much politics impinges on people's lives & thoughts. You can't organise a sodding whist drive without checking with the local party secretary that the right "messages" are being conveyed. I don't want autonomous institutions put under pressure to make political statements or gestures, nor do I want them making such gestures. It is inimical to their instrinsic purposes (if those purposes are not political) & there is no need. If you want to know what to think about Margaret Court's comments, reading this thread would be far more help than going to a renamed arena. The arena's role is in tennis and Court's achievements are in tennis.

4. The renamers have completely missed the best reason for renaming it the "Ken Rosewall arena".

Court played on the WTA.
The vast majority of your entire argument here seems to treat this as an academic exercise - a debate - where there are two valid arguments to be considered and then a view can be reached. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am suggesting that trying to reduce emotive and controversial issues to the level of an Oxford Union warm-up is taking it to the other extreme. This is the sort of issue where taking some of the passion out of it is helpful - but not all - because then you reduce complex human interactions to an overly simplistic level and risk missing the point entirely.

I agree that the court was named as a result of her tennis achievements and it should take something beyond the pale to get her name taken off it again.

So the real question is where that balance lies - that "beyond the pale" line.

Some clearly believe that this sort of public statement - not just against gay marriage, but the whole ethos of tolerance of homosexuality in a civilised society - is beyond that pale, and others don't. That's fine, and I agree that people can be over-zealous in the pursuit of political correctness, but equally I feel that there's a false argument being made that there needs to be some sort of balance between "tolerance" and "intolerance". That intolerance of "intolerance" is a bad thing in and of itself. I do not want to live in a society where, in the interests of some sort of misguided "balance", bigots and other narrow-minded, intolerant people who refuse to live and let live, are allowed equal space to spew their hate-filled bile without any sort of consequences.

I don't think her name should be removed from the court. I would like to see TA issue a statement next month rejecting her position on homosexuality and regretting her need to make her opinions public, using her platform as a public figure from tennis to disseminate her views widely. That's up to them, though, but given, as you said, the tide of intolerance towards homosexual people has only really turned in the last 50 years, and then only partially, I think that is something they should do. Pro sport is one of the places where homophobia and other forms of bigotry are often still considered acceptable, or at least, too difficult to challenge and overcome. Here is an opportunity for pro tennis at least to show a wider, more encompassing view of humanity than that of Margaret Court, without resorting to dishonouring her achievements in tennis.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:12 PM   #185
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
For heaven's sake Karin, homosexuality was abominated by the vast majority of people for centuries. Basically between the fall of the Western Roman Empire & the 1960s. You don't seriously believe 50 years of lame gay activism is going to overturn centuries of cultural conditioning do you? Most old people have views that a lot of the more intolerant "liberals" on this forum would want them tarred & feathered for - and most of those old people are decent people who happen to have different views.
Not 'overturn', no, unfortunately not. But I do believe that there are plenty of intelligent people (of whatever age) who have managed to open their closed minds due to information, education, and yes... even activism.

BTW, I do not want to see anyone 'tarred' for their ridiculous beliefs and opinions. I rather feel pity for them.

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Originally Posted by LoveFifteen View Post
You could easily substitute gays for Asians, blacks, Jews, Muslims, etc., and the idea would be exactly the same. Just admit you find gay people disgusting and you enjoy insulting them. There are old Americans who are still alive who "abominate" black people, and you don't just say, "Oh sorry, those old people are decent people who just happen to have different views. You can't expect the lame activism of Martin Luther King, Jr. et al to overturn their culture."
Exactly. Don't forget 'women', btw.

Quote:
Some Europeans in my grandparents generation, who are still alive, supported the Holocaust and hated Jews. Do you just excuse them as decent people because anti-Semitism was culturally acceptable in Europe for hundred and hundreds of years?
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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
I don't think that's what's going on here - I think that in a some cases it's quite simply, as a western white male, to really understand or empathise with being discriminated against or treated a second class citizen, and many people unfortunately do not even attempt it. Minds closed in unimaginative complacency.
I remember that Arthur Ashe, in his days of 'lame activism', quite often got remarks like "what's your problem?, you're rich eh?" and the like, to which he answered that one only really knows what it feels like to be discriminated against when one's part of that discriminated group of people.

As fantastic a tennis player Ashe was, I respect him even more for the fact that while he indeed became part of the 'rich & famous', he never forgot his background and did all he could to emphasize the value of equal human rights for all - and fight for them, even ending up in jail for a short period.
Quite a difference to Mrs. Court I daresay.
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:10 PM   #186
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

Such a shame that Court expressed herself the old fashioned way. Would have been great if she had pulled a stand up and produced a similar performance as Eddie Murphy did in his '87 classic "Raw". Check it out on YouTube, Raw part 2, 1.00-2.20. "Pull over, pull over, pull over". I laughed so hard.
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:30 PM   #187
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Tennis is much more important to me - & to most tennis fans - than "gay rights". That's why I care.
"Gay" rights are human rights
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:47 AM   #188
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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This is totalitarian in tendency. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, politics is a small & mostly unimportant part of life, having far less effect than politicians imagine & occupying only a tiny part of most people's consciousnesses - and this is how it should be. One of the most noticeable features of a tyranny is how much politics impinges on people's lives & thoughts. You can't organise a sodding whist drive without checking with the local party secretary that the right "messages" are being conveyed. I don't want autonomous institutions put under pressure to make political statements or gestures, nor do I want them making such gestures. It is inimical to their instrinsic purposes (if those purposes are not political) & there is no need. If you want to know what to think about Margaret Court's comments, reading this thread would be far more help than going to a renamed arena. The arena's role is in tennis and Court's achievements are in tennis.
Ditto.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:57 AM   #189
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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"Gay" rights are human rights
Which should have nothing to do with sport.
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:21 AM   #190
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Actually, yes, it is standard for old people to be "racist" in modern liberal terms, and most of those old people are indeed perfectly decent people. It is a ludicrous over-correction to go from the mistreatment of the past to the idea that anybody who is "racist" is evil, & I suspect it has happened just because the last century afforded us - in the Holocaust - a world-shatteringly horrific instance of mass murder with a racist justification. The vast majority of elderly people, although racist, are against mass murder, so it is absurd to treat them with the same opprobrium you would give a Nazi. Real Nazis are obviously a different case.

I don't, as it happens, have anything against homosexuals: not merely some, but arguably most of my best friends are gay (I'm saying this without irony because it's true). But I do find homosexual activism, along with all other kinds of p.c. liberal-bigot activism, intensely irritating.
You wouldn't be white middle class male would you? geniune question!

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Old 12-23-2011, 04:29 AM   #191
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

Utter clusterfuck of a thread complete with typical privileged responses from straight males who have no idea what being discriminated is like
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:42 AM   #192
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

Usually only top players play in MGA so know any homosexual top players? I have got my suspicions but given my lack of experience with homosexual men, my hypotheses as to who might be gay might be completely off and it would be wiser to hear others' opinions.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:00 AM   #193
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Yes.

Court is just expressing an (in this case, absurd) opinion. It has no effect on anybody who is sensible enough to ignore it.
Court´s comment is a reflexion of a bigger problem, that should not be ignored. Anyone sensible enough should NOT ignore it.

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Tennis is much more important to me - & to most tennis fans - than "gay rights". That's why I care.
Tennis is more important to you than human rights? That must be very easy to say for someone who has never had to fight over his rights, or be discrimnated by his race, skin color, religion or sexual orientation. I ´d say "most tennis fans" are a bit more sensible than that.

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For heaven's sake Karin, homosexuality was abominated by the vast majority of people for centuries. Basically between the fall of the Western Roman Empire & the 1960s. You don't seriously believe 50 years of lame gay activism is going to overturn centuries of cultural conditioning do you? Most old people have views that a lot of the more intolerant "liberals" on this forum would want them tarred & feathered for - and most of those old people are decent people who happen to have different views.
The history is full of other horrible things as well, do you think black people should still be treated as slaves? Has it all just been "lame activism" to improve their rights? I´m sure some people feel they should still be nothing more than slaves. do you think these people are decent people as well?

Or maybe we should take the voting rights away from women. That´s also a relatively new phenomenon, and I´m sure not everyone agrees. But I suppose anyone who feels women have a right to vote are just "intolerant liberals", as you put it.

Point is, you can´t cherry pick which human rights are worth fighting for, and which are not. I suppose it´s easy to have that kind of distorted view if you´re a white, british, straight male. But that doesn´t make it the right view.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:35 AM   #194
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Utter clusterfuck of a thread complete with typical privileged responses from straight males who have no idea what being discriminated is like
My sentiment exactly, most people who mock civil rights movements are those who have never had their rights jeopardised – people who have never had to fight to get the vote, employment rights, social acceptance – because they happen to come from socio-ethnic group which has historically been the dominating not the dominated
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:17 AM   #195
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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You wouldn't be white middle class male would you? geniune question!
Wouldn't this very question be discrimatory?! Because it sounded as if you made a generalization there based on colour of the skin and social status.

I don't think Sophocles is mocking activism. But here is the thing with some forms of activism: it outcasts anyone who thinks differently. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction- people react without even thinking. Look at the reactions on this thread at people who just thought that the court shouldn't renamed (even expressing their thoughts that it is wrong being homophobic, but pointing out other reasons they disagree with renaming it): they were instantly accused of being homophobics, narrow minded and reactionary.

The problem with a lof of the PC activism is that it, at some point, takes a bad turn. How did the gay rights movement started?! With people questioning the status quo, questioning what was accepted to be the truth and "correct" moral way of living life. The problem, to me, arrives when the issue becomes holy moral territory- when nothing that concerns the issue can be even debated.

For instance: in my eyes, society evolved enough for us to acknowledge that prejudice towards gay people is wrong. Period. And when people act with prejudice towards them, they should be called out. Society should react against it. The entire question about "should tennis australia rename the court" revolves around the following "how should society react". Should the courts be renamed?! And here comes the catch: one can be against bigotry but can also think that erasing an entire person's life work isn't right. But this very proposition seems to stir people up. As if either you are "with us or against us". I mean, if they first named the court "Margaret Court" it shows that this woman did some good things in life. Should it all go down the toilet because on a particular issue she is, in today's society eyes, wrong?

Specially when you consider that the very discussion about homosexuality has numerous loop-holes. My view on human sexuality is simple: it is none of my business what two (or more! ) consenting people do in the bedroom (or other venues, for that matter). And it has no bearings in the person's carachter: being a jerk has no relationship with being straight, gay or bisexual. Therefore I see no reason why we should treat gay, straight or bisexual differently. However, it comes from a standpoint that human sexuality and moral behaviour are not linked.

To try to make my point clear I ask the following: what if Margaret said that she is against people being promiscuous and having multiple sexual partners, and that people who act that way shouldn't be allowed to get married. Would the reaction be the same?! Would people ask for the courts to be renamed?! I mean, the logic is the same: people shouldn't be discriminated because of their sexual behaviour.
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