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Old 10-30-2011, 06:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Primarily the events of WWII. There are many documentaries I could upload for you if you are interested in any particular theater of war.
But what exactly happened that it was so easy to kill your neighbor. Were relations totally nonexistent between people before that time. What triggered violence?

I see you edited the post to add 2 incidents. I want to understand why the grudge didn't fade out after many years, and how the relations between people were between ww2 and 90s? Why did violence erupted again in 90s?
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
I mean in general. What do they think of that time, and do they believe the war was going to happen any way. Or that Milosovic and others had influence in creating hate and violence. Like, was there a possibility of preventing hate and violence with other leaders and ideas? Was there a definite political and social opposition who was telling people to adopt more tolerant ideas, do they regret not joining it now?
You should read "Bridge on the Drina" and "Black Lamb and Grey Falcon." They will give you a proper perspective of the hatred that bubbles beneath the surface in that particular region, particularly Bosnia and Croatia.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Milosevic had a minimal influence in creating or propagating hatred. The hatred existed before and especially after WWII and could only be suppressed by force, a la Tito. When the rule of law broke down during wartime, people took "justice" into their own hands and started avenging grudges from WWII and even before.

The fault for all of this lies with the fact that Tito and his band of Croat-Slovene communists decided to fabricate history. They invented "Brotherhood and Unity," thinking that people would really buy into it. Those who aligned with the Nazis - primarily Croats, but also Muslims and Albanians - were never denazified, so they remained fixed in their former attitudes.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
But what exactly happened that it was so easy to kill your neighbor. Were relations totally nonexistent between people before that time. What triggered violence?
There was an anti-Serb hostility among Croats dating to the 1800s. It stems from different social statuses of the two groups in the Austro-Hungarian empire. Serbs were free farmers and military men, directly under the control of the Austrian Emperor. Croats were mostly serfs of the Hungarians.

Ante Starcevic was the father of the rabidly anti-Serb ideology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Starčević He is also the father of modern Croatian nationalism.

The Roman Catholic church was also extremely hostile to the Orthodox Church, especially after the Vatican-Yugoslav Concordat failed. Thus, Catholic priests often inspired massacres and conducted them. Even nuns murdered Serb children. Both priests and nuns were involved in the concentration camps and killed people in them.

Those factors coupled with the German/Italian invasion of 1941 set the groundwork for a fascist Croatian state which attempted to exterminate every last Serb, Jew, and Gypsy they could get their hands on.

Muslims in Bosnia either embraced a Croat ethnicity ("Muslim Croats") or were coerced into doing so. They thus collaborated extensively with the Croat anti-Serb campaign, massacring Serbs and assisting in deportations to Jasenovac and other death camps in Croatia and Bosnia.

Also, Muslims were bitter because of the agricultural reform that took place in 1919 after WWI. Muslim landowners who controlled most of the land lost this property and it was given to the people living on it, who were mostly Serb farmers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Kosovo Albanians are quite apart from the Croat-Muslim situation. They merely wanted Kosovo for themselves and killed and expelled Serbs during the war. Albanians and Serbs never had great relations and always lived parallel existences, probably due to the language difference.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:26 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
But what exactly happened that it was so easy to kill your neighbor. Were relations totally nonexistent between people before that time. What triggered violence?

I see you edited the post to add 2 incidents. I want to understand why the grudge didn't fade out after many years, and how the relations between people were between ww2 and 90s? Why did violence erupted again in 90s?
Well, as I said, the perpetrators of WWII were never really punished. Nobody answered for all those murders.

There are cavernous pits throughout Croatia and Bosnia called "jame" (pronounced ya-meh) which contain the skeletons of tens of thousands of Serbs (and thousands of Jews). They are particularly dense in what is called Herzegovina, Lika, Banija, Kordun, and western Bosnia.

The Communists did not allow the Serbs to even exhume their victims from these pits. Instead, they covered them with cement plugs while the beasts who did the killings roamed free and some even became communist politicians in those municipalities.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
You should read "Bridge on the Drina" and "Black Lamb and Grey Falcon." They will give you a proper perspective of the hatred that bubbles beneath the surface in that particular region, particularly Bosnia and Croatia.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Milosevic had a minimal influence in creating or propagating hatred. The hatred existed before and especially after WWII and could only be suppressed by force, a la Tito. When the rule of law broke down during wartime, people took "justice" into their own hands and started avenging grudges from WWII and even before.

The fault for all of this lies with the fact that Tito and his band of Croat-Slovene communists decided to fabricate history. They invented "Brotherhood and Unity," thinking that people would really buy into it. Those who aligned with the Nazis - primarily Croats, but also Muslims and Albanians - were never denazified, so they remained fixed in their former attitudes.
The thing that I don't understand is that in this situation there is no third option, it's either separation or equal rights for all with forgetting the past. Why did Milosovic and his supporters tried to keep the union when they think they can't live with others.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:35 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Well, as I said, the perpetrators of WWII were never really punished. Nobody answered for all those murders.

There are cavernous pits throughout Croatia and Bosnia called "jame" (pronounced ya-meh) which contain the skeletons of tens of thousands of Serbs (and thousands of Jews). They are particularly dense in what is called Herzegovina, Lika, Banija, Kordun, and western Bosnia.

The Communists did not allow the Serbs to even exhume their victims from these pits. Instead, they covered them with cement plugs while the beasts who did the killings roamed free and some even became communist politicians in those municipalities.
That is awful and ending ww2 was so important to leaders that they neglected the grief of victims families.
But in 90s people who did the massacres in ww2 were already dead and making revenge massacres wasn't going to help.
I will order this book, it seems deep
http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Drina-P.../dp/0226020452 but I also want to read the other side.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Thank you guys about Montenegro*

Here is kind of how I see it:

1. Slovenia and Croatia, wanted to separate from the start because they were the more wealthier of the nations of former Yugoslavia. From the inception to its death, most of these people did not want to share their lands resources with their neighbors. They only wanted the lands for themselves. I guess in some sense they were greedy and accused poorer nations like Bosnia, Serbia, and Macedonia etc. of leeching off of them. While wealth was important to these two, so was cultural nationalism that had always existed in these regions.

2. Albanians of Kosovo, Kosovo separated more for cultural reasons than economic ones. The Albanians of Kosovo were waiting for an excuse and Slovenia and Croatia, inspired and provoked them to take action ASAP. These guys were nationalist to the point where they even hated not just Serbs, but Bosnians and other minorities in these lands.

3. Bosnia. I believe most Bosnians had this in mind: "What's the point of Yugoslavia anymore, Slovenia, Croatia, etc. have already split. They don't want to be a part of it. And this system and its economy are going to drop ASAP. We might as well separate too". So when this happened, Bosnians, Serbians, and even Croatians, were quick to react. They realized what was at stake (the lands).

So pretty much I would say at heart, Croatia, Slovenia, and Kosovo, were the perpetrators that never wanted to stick it out. Whereas Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, only reacted to nationalism/separation because they saw what was coming.

I'm sure though, even if Croatia, Slovenia, and Kosovo, wouldn't have sent in their resignation, I'm more than sure the war was imminent (if not), then somehow, someway, the collapse of Yugoslavia would have happened (because of cultural reasons primarily and economic reasons as a secondary motive).

With all said and done. Hopefully there is a way that these people and even their minorities (like Hungarians, Gypsies, Turks, Goranis etc.) can all live in peace.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:51 PM   #38
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

slovenia broke away because of the yugoslavian regime which stopped working in their favor (in most part because milosevic, who wanted more power, took it over). economically, slovenia had all the interest in the world to stay in yugoslavia, where their main market was.

croatia broke away because their ever long dream was to be an independent nation. similar with kosovo.

macedonia saw their chance to be independent and serbia/yugoslavia had nothing against it.

bosnia was ripped apart by various factions.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by shiaben View Post
Thank you guys about Montenegro*

Here is kind of how I see it:

1. Slovenia and Croatia, wanted to separate from the start because they were the more wealthier of the nations of former Yugoslavia. From the inception to its death, most of these people did not want to share their lands resources with their neighbors. They only wanted the lands for themselves. I guess in some sense they were greedy and accused poorer nations like Bosnia, Serbia, and Macedonia etc. of leeching off of them. While wealth was important to these two, so was cultural nationalism that had always existed in these regions.
You should read about the creation of Yugoslavia. In 1918, Croats and Slovenes requested to unify with Serbia. That was because if they hadn't they would be paying war reparations to the victors of WWI and would have been annexed by Italy, Hungary, and Austria.

If you look at the Slovenian case, their 2nd largest city - Maribor - is in Slovenia only because of their union with Serbia. The majority of people in Maribor in 1918 were German speakers who were pressured out or expelled. Same thing happened in 1945, when Tito sent Serbs to conquer Trieste from Italy (for Slovenia), but after thousands of lives lost had to return it to Italy (and quite rightly, I might add). With Croatia, it's a similar story. Istria, Rijeka (Fiume), Zadar (Zara), etc. would have gone to Italy if it weren't for Yugoslavia. It is precisely because Serbia accepted Croatia and deprived Italy of Dalmatia that the Italian fascists got so much support as "liberators" of the "unredeemed lands" that should have gone to Italy.

Read about the foibe, where Slovene and Croat communists stole territory from Italy by wiping out the Italians in these areas, despite the fact that in WWII Croatia was a rabid ally of Hitler and Mussolini: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_killings

Quote:
2. Albanians of Kosovo, Kosovo separated more for cultural reasons than economic ones. The Albanians of Kosovo were waiting for an excuse and Slovenia and Croatia, inspired and provoked them to take action ASAP. These guys were nationalist to the point where they even hated not just Serbs, but Bosnians and other minorities in these lands.
Basically correct. They've wiped Gypsies and Jews out of Kosovo, as well as Vitina Croats and Goranis, who are Serbian-speaking Muslims. Slovenia was coordinating everything with the Albanians. The 1974 constitution which gave Kosovo autonomy was written by a Slovenian schoolteacher named Edvard Kardelj. Slovenia was also sending them weapons starting in 1995 onwards to 1999, so even after their independence Slovenia was promoting the disintegration of Serbia.

Quote:
3. Bosnia. I believe most Bosnians had this in mind: "What's the point of Yugoslavia anymore, Slovenia, Croatia, etc. have already split. They don't want to be a part of it. And this system and its economy are going to drop ASAP. We might as well separate too". So when this happened, Bosnians, Serbians, and even Croatians, were quick to react. They realized what was at stake (the lands).
Bosnia until the 1960s had Serbs as the largest ethnic group. That situation changed in favor of the Muslims due to Serb migration into Serbia (especially Belgrade), Muslim migration into Bosnia from poor areas of Serbia (Sandzak), and the higher Muslim birthrate. With under 50% of the population, it was suicidal for the Muslims to think they could create a unitary state dominated by them when their Christian neighbors were vehemently opposed to Muslim rule. The Croats played the Muslims well, knowing that they needed their demographic weight to tear Bosnia away from Yugoslavia, but then turning on them in 1993 to stake out their own land.

Quote:
So pretty much I would say at heart, Croatia, Slovenia, and Kosovo, were the perpetrators that never wanted to stick it out. Whereas Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, only reacted to nationalism/separation because they saw what was coming.
Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, and Macedonians (in the order) were the biggest losers/victims of the breakup of Yugoslavia. They lost territory and lives (Serbs and Bosnian Muslims), or in the case of the Macedonians are dealing with an Albanian demographic timebomb headed the same way as Kosovo.

Quote:
I'm sure though, even if Croatia, Slovenia, and Kosovo, wouldn't have sent in their resignation, I'm more than sure the war was imminent (if not), then somehow, someway, the collapse of Yugoslavia would have happened (because of cultural reasons primarily and economic reasons as a secondary motive).

With all said and done. Hopefully there is a way that these people and even their minorities (like Hungarians, Gypsies, Turks, Goranis etc.) can all live in peace.
I hope so too. But the machinations of Turkey, Germany, the US, the UK, and the Vatican continue, with Russia tagging along, so the Balkans will continue to see warfare and bloodshed, I am afraid.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
That is awful and ending ww2 was so important to leaders that they neglected the grief of victims families.
But in 90s people who did the massacres in ww2 were already dead and making revenge massacres wasn't going to help.
I will order this book, it seems deep
http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Drina-P.../dp/0226020452 but I also want to read the other side.
I agree with this. Unfortunately, innocent people were murdered in the 1990s because the perpetrators of mass murder during WWII were never punished.

Here are a few documentaries.

1.) The role of the Catholic church in extermination and forced conversion of Serbs to Roman Catholicism:













2.) The cavernous killing pits of Croatia and Bosnia:













3.) The extermination of Serb and Jewish children in Croatian camps specially built for children:









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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)

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Old 10-30-2011, 08:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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If mainstream Greek views were in line with the first part of your post, they would hardly be 98% opposed to the bombing.
Milosevic's monstrous deeds could not break the strong personal, cultural and historical bonds and friendship between Serbs and Greeks.

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From my experience with Greek Americans, admittedly limited, their views are also not generally in line with the first part of your post.
massive disparity between the Greek subculture in the States and the Greek culture in homeland Greece.

in other words, Greek Americans are not Greeks.
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Old 10-30-2011, 08:11 PM   #42
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Milosevic's monstrous deeds could not break the strong personal, cultural and historical bonds and friendship between Serbs and Greeks.



massive disparity between the Greek subculture in the States and the Greek culture in homeland Greece.

in other words, Greek Americans are not Greeks.
1.) You are massively wrong on Milosevic and his deeds. Milosevic was no more monstrous than Albright or Clinton in my book. And that's where I'm ending this discussion for my part.

2.) And you are wrong about diasporas in general and the Greek diaspora in particular. It's like saying that the Jewish diaspora was not Jewish because they did not live in Israel for 2000 years. Like hell they weren't!
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Why did Milosovic and his supporters tried to keep the union when they think they can't live with others.
Aye, that is the mystery. I don't think even he himself knew exactly what he was trying to achieve. Trying to show everybody that he is the boss or something, but no clear plan whatsoever. I think Vida put it most succinctly:

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Originally Posted by Vida View Post
mostly that he was a crazy fck.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:35 PM   #44
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Some diaspora are similar to mainland people. You can see this in all cultures. Yes, there's a likelihood that Greeks in the U.S. or Australia have additional values than mainland Greeks, but this doesn't mean that they've lost 100% all their original Greek culture and values.

Take for example. There are Poles born in Germany, that may have a dislike of Germans as equally as Poles born in Poland. Yet at the same time there could be Poles born in Poland who love Germans as equally as another group of Poles born in Germany.

Culture, religion, politics, language, and other institutions can still travel with you.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:39 PM   #45
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiaben View Post
Some diaspora are similar to mainland people. You can see this in all cultures. Yes, there's a likelihood that Greeks in the U.S. or Australia have additional values than mainland Greeks, but this doesn't mean that they've lost 100% all their original Greek culture and values.

Take for example. There are Poles born in Germany, that may have a dislike of Germans as equally as Poles born in Poland. Yet at the same time there could be Poles born in Poland who love Germans as equally as another group of Poles born in Germany.

Culture, religion, politics, language, and other institutions can still travel with you.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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